#738 Kevin's Journey From Anglican Priest to Catholicism

A former Anglican Priest says, “I lost the argument,” and somehow that turns into a battle for truth, conscience, and coming home. Kevin Middlesworth joins us to share the winding road from a devoted evangelical childhood, through Calvinist and Reformed theology, into Anglican priesthood, and finally into full communion with the Catholic Church.

We talk about the moment when so many Christians hit a wall: the authority question. Who gets to say what Scripture means, what the Eucharist really is, and what the moral life demands? Kevin describes the hidden exhaustion of being your own final judge, the “crushing weight” of trying to carry every doctrine alone. From there, we follow the breadcrumbs that led him to the Church Fathers, the Catechism, and St. John Henry Newman’s insight on conscience as God’s persistent voice.

This is not just an intellectual conversion story. Kevin opens up about marriage, friendship, and the real cost of changing course, plus why he refused to pressure his wife while she wrestled with the same Catholic claims. 

Eucharistic adoration, Confession, the Rosary, the Liturgy of the Hours, and the surprising discovery that what once looked like “extra's” is actually God’s abundance.

If you’re curious about Catholicism, returning to the faith, or trying to find solid ground in a noisy culture, come listen. Subscribe, share this with a friend who’s asking hard questions, and leave a review with your biggest takeaway.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Kevin Is Here

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Claymore Become Who You Are podcast, the production of the John Paul Two Renewal Center. I'm Jack Riggert, your host. I'm excited to be here with two great guys. A little background on Mark, who you you'll recognize already. When Mark was just learning about theology of the body, and he started to talk to me about some of these things that were changing his heart. I had an upcoming three-night parish mission at a Newman Center in a university close by. And I said, Mark, would you join me in this parish mission? And he said, you know, basically, what's a parish mission? And I said, We'll be there for three nights. Just tell him, tell that audience, which would be made up of older people in the parish, but also a lot of college students, just tell them what you just told me. And we did, and he knocked it out of the park. So we had so much fun out there. So then Mark said to me uh recently, I want you to meet a friend of mine, Kevin Middlesworth. And uh I said, Great. Well, how about if we meet on a podcast? So Kevin and I are just meeting. Um Mark and Kevin, thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah, Jack, great to uh great to be back with you. And I know it's funny to think back when you asked me. I don't know if I was the most qualified, but it was uh good opportunity to let the the Holy Spirit lead. The Holy Spirit went. And really that's kind of you know, at the heart of kind of why we're sitting down here with Kevin is just, you know, at that moment when you had asked me, you know, really my life was in the process of just radically changing through the teachings of theology of the body, really coming to know the truth and beauty of our of our Catholic faith. And and my heart was just set on fire. And uh it's been an incredible journey over the last uh 10 years. And Jack, you know, when you and I had talked a few weeks ago about, you know, having these conversations, this is really a continuation from our conversation with Cooper that we had last week is, you know, people want to know the theology, they want to know the truth, but they also most importantly want to know is what does this do for my life? You know, how that that practical theology of how does this actually transform? What is what has happened? And, you know, so we're excited to be here with Kevin. Kevin, you and I have known each other for uh for some years, and I know some of your some of your story, but excited to just kind of dive deeper into that because what I do know kind of the highlight is you know, you were an Anglican priest, and we'll get into that, but now here you are as a faithful Catholic. And so excited to just kind of unpack of what has your journey been like. So uh yeah, Kevin, why don't you introduce yourself for the listeners?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Thanks, Mark, and uh Jack. It's nice to be with you. My name's Kevin Middlesworth, and I'm here because I'm a happy loser. I lost the argument, and I guess I have something of a story to tell about it. Uh I uh grew up in an evangelical, loving evangelical home, and took me a long time to finally get home. Home to Rome, I guess, is some something that Scott Hahn would probably did say. But yeah, it's I'm happy to be here and uh looking forward to the discussion.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

So so you mentioned you grew up, you know, in a happy evangelical home. Kind of what was there a specific denomination that you're a part of, but what did, I guess, maybe a broader picture of what did your childhood

Evangelical Roots And Loving Community

SPEAKER_01 3:05

look like? What was your experience like in Christianity growing up?

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Yeah. You know, it was a it's a Church of Christ tradition, which is a lot like a a lot of the Baptist churches that you might go to throughout the country. I grew up in rural Indiana, and some of my earliest memories are from my dad. When I wake up in the morning, I would walk down to the kitchen and look for some cereal or something to eat, and he would be at the kitchen table reading the Psalms. And that kind of coins my childhood to some degree because we were faithful and attending our our church every Sunday, and we were really a part of the community. So I think if I could boil it down, it was loving Jesus, which was the critical thing that uh really was driven home for me as a child, and then doing that in community, uh spending time at the parish. We were we were always the last ones to leave after after Sunday church. And it's funny because my wife and I now we're uh sometimes the last ones to leave after mass. Which, you know, some some some of the and and and that was just uh a wonderful thing that was kind of ingrained in me as a as a young boy. You you you hang around. You you hang around with others who are trying to do the same thing you are.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

And so at that stage of kind of growing up in that tradition, I mean, did you did you feel you know completely satisfied with your Christian experience? Was there any kind of questions or kind of theological questions uh coming up at that time, or would you say you were just very content with where you were at at that point?

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, I didn't know what I didn't know at that point. Everything that I had was what I thought I was what I thought was there for me to have. I didn't I didn't know about the creed, I didn't know about the all of the sacraments, I didn't have a really strong theological framework. The tradition I was kind of, well the Christian I was born into really had a a motto that was no creed but the Bible, no no name but Christ. So theological tradition traditions, doctrinal traditions, church fathers, the history of of theological thought really just wasn't on my radar actually until I got to college. And somebody's like, Well, I'm gonna write a paper on the Apostles' Creed. And I was like, what kind of heresy is that? You know, I I didn't know what it was. I I I didn't uh know that was a thing. I did know of some Catholics, but I I didn't really know them well, and Catholicism was not really on my map, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

And so would you say, were you kind of from a practice standpoint, and you know, were you remaining faithful? I mean, was your faith important to you when you went to college? Or were you studying your faith? Like what was your background in college? Where did you go and interested in?

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Well, I went to Taylor University, which is a an interdenominational school, private school in Indiana. It's got a great culture, had a great time. And that was really where

College Debates And Truth That Matters

SPEAKER_02 6:05

I think my faith was challenged with theological frameworks. You know, what do you believe about predestination? Like, what is predestination and Calvinism and all of that stuff? And we really, we really got into that enough to the point where, you know, I it kind of formed me and and I, you know, had my Calvinist uh kind of reformed kind of stage of life that kind of began at that point. You know, and and my faith also became more real to me in the sense that I really ended up with a strong set of friends there where we were willing to speak truth to each other and encourage each other and help each other. You know, at that point, I I still didn't really have a sacramental understanding of the world and how God created it. I didn't understand that grace is something that could come to me through that through that angle. And that was still very much foreign to me. Um not not at all, not still not on my radar, but I realized at that point I did need some sort of way to understand the revelation that God has given us, right? Like it's not just enough to read your Bible. That's you know, a lot of people have done that and gone lots of different funny ways. There really needs to be a common understanding, an interpretive framework for for that revelation. And, you know, I didn't I didn't yet have a any semblance of a thought that that could be a living thing at the time, but it it was becoming real to me that something that that that that is necessary in order to not fall into error, in order to engage with the different positions that you run into every day in the in the course of life.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

How uh so tell me if this is so you kind of grew up in this good environment where it wasn't too doctrinally focused, and now you get to tailor, and all of a sudden you're starting to have more of these deeper conversations, these different doctrines, ideas are coming up. Was that your first experience of different Protestants starting to disagree about different doctrines and so forth? Uh was that kind of a new experience of like, wow, these there's there's a lot of different opinions here?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah, it's funny you say that. I've never really thought about it that way. But I think I did learn that the faith is something worth arguing about in college. You know, that what we believe it matters and it's really worth hashing it out. If if somebody believes something different than I do, obviously you want to respect each other and and work it out, but you can't be afraid of making some sparks fly. Sure. Intellectually, and uh because truth matters, right? And um, the measure of a man is what he does when he runs into truth. And so that was when I started realizing, oh wow, there's a whole world here, and it's worth arguing about, it's worth learning about. I need to what why did I just say that? I don't even know if I believe it. I need to go look that up and see what that is. And you know, you get in those arguments and you run in you run to the end of your your knowledge pretty quick, but you keep going and you realize, oh, that was a mistake. I don't know. What do I really believe now? Sure. So that was very much that kind of that kind of um experience you.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

You could see you you could see why, Kevin, that people could be shaken out of their faith, can't you? You know, I mean, if if you don't continue, you know, to pursue the truth, you know, what is the truth of things, it could rattle you, can't it?

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Yeah, absolutely. And and and I you know, you have those moments where you encounter something and you feel that little shake of faith, right? You feel, oh man, golly, that's a pretty good argument. I need to I need to go look into that. And and uh and I think I think part of my conversion journey was actually what you say, Jack, was a frantic attempt to find something that could hold up to to liberation theology, to process theology, to why is this a sin? This shouldn't even be a sin, to why don't we just why don't we just live and let live? Let's let's you know to to all these different, you know, it doesn't matter. Does it really matter? You know, God does God really gonna judge you, you know? I mean, all those things that that you encounter, absolutely, and and and I think I think that started a kind of the search within me at that phase of life.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting, Kevin. I don't know if uh you would you would resonate with this or agree with this, but something that I've come across, a sense that I've gotten in certain conversations with Protestants is that these certain doctrines that we that we're disagreeing with or trying to come to understand is there almost seems to be this like throwing up of the hands of like, you know, we're we're all just trying our best. We're gonna try and figure it out. But at the end of the day, just like you said, does God really care if we figure this out exactly? We're all just doing the best we can. And one day, you know, maybe in heaven we'll we'll figure that out. But it but it almost feels like the sense of like, we're not gonna figure it out here, you know? And and of course there might be certain certain aspects, but that's definitely not the Catholic view of how we can come to know the truth and what's been revealed to us. I mean, did you would you would you say that's kind of a sense that you got at Taylor? A lot of people just kind of wrestling with things, but they're almost like wrestling with questions that at the end of the day we're never gonna fully know. Or I don't know, like were you alone in this of like really, really wrestling and trying to know the truth? I mean, what was your experience like with your friends, the community there of people all trying to resolve these questions?

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, I I think yes, the the biggest challenge was who's the authority? Right. And at that stage in my life, I didn't really understand that there could

The Authority Problem And Crushing Weight

SPEAKER_02 12:05

be an external authority, an interpretive guide, and a living, spirit-filled magisterium that could be the thing I rely on in order to conform myself to it. Instead, it was, okay, I need to figure this out. And I need to be my own magisterial authority, and that is a crushing weight. It's a crushing weight that you don't really realize how heavy it is until you, you know, you're like, oh, here's this doctrinal question. Let me throw this rock into my bucket. And then next thing you know, you can't, you're you're you're trying to carry a bucket. You you don't have the strength to hold. And so I think there is a there is a a tendency to just either stop stop trying or just to kind of say, you know, I'm gonna, we're just gonna talk, call a timeout. Let's go eat some cheeseburgers and shoot some hoops.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

And that's fine, you know. What a wonderful point because what'll happen is, you know, it same thing happened to to me when I came back into the church with all these questions. I was gone for 20 years, Kevin. And and when I came back in and started to ask these questions, and here's what you find, because you you run out of time, right? I mean, how how how much time if I've got a job and I've got you know more education, or maybe I'm even married with a kid, whatever that is, how much time do we have? And then you start to read the early church fathers and the doctrines and the dogmas of the church, and you go, Whoa, there's been a lot of smart guys through the years that have asked those same questions I'm asking, and it goes all the way back and it's done through the centuries. And you it you I'm I was astounded, Kevin, that whoa, not only do they have answers, but they were asking the same questions, and I now you could see it from different light. And now you can wrestle with those, but at least you have a base, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:52

Yeah, and I mean I kind of started with it, but you you don't realize that you're engaging in an arg argument that you desperately want to lose, right? Not not not so that you can throw your hands up and say, Well, I'm not, you know what, hey, the church fathers knew it, so why should I care? But so that you could actually you could actually get the benefit of all of that thought, of all of that discerned truth that's been struggled over over centuries and centuries, and then be able to use that as you live your life and not have to start at zero and and and try to recreate that whole that whole thing because you know otherwise otherwise it's very difficult to actually figure out what you're called to in life. It's you you know, it becomes crushing weight that and and then and then what if you're wrong? What if what if what if everything what if everything that you've pieced together doesn't fit? Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

That's a scary thing. You know, I remember when I was a non-practicing Catholic and my wife was a non-practicing method Methodist when we got married, and and we tried to goof up our kids as much as we could. And and so our second child, uh Jake, our our son, got out of college and went to RCIA. And uh and anyways, I asked him, I said, Well, why are you, you know, why'd you decide to come into the church? And he said, What you just said, Kevin. He said, You know, remember, Dad, you told me that story when you're an 85-year-old guy sitting on a rocking chair on the on the path on the porch outside, sipping lemonade, and you said, I'm starting to get it. You know, it's starting to all come to me. But you look behind you and you go, ooh, there was so much devastation, so much error behind me, right? And so what is the truth of things? You you want some kind of base, right? That and then you can launch, continue to launch into an exploration. It doesn't stop, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:44

And and then there's also the act the access to the immediate revelation, right? It's not just in your head, it's what happens on that altar. And and you can't you can't get your head around that, and you never will, and and and and deciding, you know, that's it's it's not just me getting my head right, it's me getting my head into a world that's beyond me, and into someone

Reformed Seminary And Becoming Anglican

SPEAKER_02 16:10

who is given himself for me and is making making me into his likeness that just you like at some point, like, okay, you just run out of words.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

You know what I mean? Mark is probably gonna ask you this next, but I'm kind of antsy that I want to hear about this. So, Marcus, you're just talking about the altar and the mass, that journey from becoming an Anglican priest, and and and then you know, I would love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_02 16:35

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Yeah, go for it, Kevin. And I and I would ask one one kind of plug-in there too. Talk about at what point in your life did Anglicanism start to become an option for you.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Yeah. So at Taylor's where I I didn't study theology or philosophy because I was scared and I didn't think I was smart enough for it. And so I studied business, which was awesome. I I learned a lot and and gained a lot of great skills from that. But then upon graduation, I decided I wanted to go to seminary. And I didn't know what seminary to go to. I mean, it's a little different in the Protestant world. You can just kind of self-select into that. And so I ended up, because of the arguments that I had had with my friends and all of the thinking that I had done to that point and trying to understand what is this revelation that God has given us and how do I make sense of it. I ended up going to a reform seminary in Orlando called Reform Theological Seminary. Wonderful place. I saw wonderful memories of the professors, of the community. But it was at that reform seminary where I became Anglican. I'll never forget the day I was getting ready to have a preaching lab. And preaching labs are, you know, they're they're they're a little rough because you got guys that have never really preached before, and then you got to sit through each other's homilies, and you know, and then you got to critique each other, and and we don't know what we're doing. And uh but hey, you stumble along and fumble along and and have a good time with it. And I remember my teaching professor the first day he walked in and he was wearing a collar, and he was wearing an Anglican collar. And one of the guys in the class said, So why are you wearing that? You know, what's that? What's that little ornament you got there? And he wasn't really being, you know, too disrespectful, but you could tell it was kind of like, Why are you walking in here or that? And he's like, I'm an Anglican priest, this collar is a slave's collar, I'm a slave to Christ and his church. And everybody went quiet, except in my head, I'm thinking, I gotta have lunch with this guy. So I he and I ended up def developing a friendship, and and that's what really got me on the road toward Anglicanism. And so I I finished my reformed theology degree as a Anglican deacon, and then later, not too long after that, became an Anglican priest, which was just kind of the next leg of my journey. Um but I I think one thing that really stuck out to me and and and I'm really grateful for in my reformed education was the, and you know, Brant Petrie, Scott Hans, some of these guys are amazing at this, even even better than the uh some of the education I got on some of the details of this, but the covenant theology was was really profound, and and this development of these covenants of God reaching out to his people and bringing them back in time and time again, over and over again throughout the history of scripture. But then it it posed a question where, you know, if we can't say that baptism is regenerative, that you receive the Holy Spirit, and all the things that happen in the new covenant are better than what happened in the old, how is that any different than the baptism of John the Baptist, which was for repentance and which was technically part of the old covenant? How do we make sense of that? And so then that launched me onto a kind of delve into the church fathers and and how they read scripture and um and then that that pushed me pretty far into the Anglo-Catholic sphere of of Anglicanism.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

Now, Kevin, when you're I I don't know a lot about the Anglican church, but so was what is the the magisterium? I mean, what does that structure look like of their view of Sola Scriptura, of defining certain doctrines and matters? I mean, did you start to feel more satisfied with the Anglican approach to that? Or it talk to me about kind of what that experience was like.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

Yeah, so Anglicanism has the 39 articles, which were developed kind of after the Reformation. Thomas Cranner was involved in the early formation of them. Um, and and they were really kind of intended to be the kind of theological framework of uh the kind of doctrinal commitment that that Anglicanism holds. But Anglicanism is a very latitudinous tradition. So, you know, the it it it's it come it has a lot of Protestant roots, it has some Catholic background and heritage. And so, you know, as an Anglican, you could be a low church Anglican and believe that the the bread and the wine remain bread and wine and it has a symbolic significance, or you could be a high church Anglican or Oxford-style Anglican from the Oxford movement and believe that it it becomes the body and blood of Christ. Now that generally we'll talk about real presence within

Eucharist And Mary Push Past Limits

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Anglicanism in that belief. Transubstantiation is not really a a language that's adopted by the Anglican tradition, but it's there's a lot of latitude. And so for me, it started off great because I could just run headlong into that high church style, right? But then you run into questions pretty quickly. Well, what does my tradition say? Say about actually what the thing is on the altar, and if it's not gonna be very specific, how does that help me? You know, for instance, if it is if that is the body of Christ, that's a different religion than if it's not. And holding that together was too much for me. And then what do you do about the Blessed Virgin? You know, I had been praying the rosary as an Anglican priest, but I couldn't really tell you. Can I just ask you, Kevin?

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Is that part of the tradition? Praying the rosary?

SPEAKER_02 22:34

There are a lot of there are a lot of high church Anglicans that that I that that I know that that they'll pray their rosary every day and have a devotion to the Blessed Virgin. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're going to say either. Now let me know. What I couldn't do, what I couldn't do is actually tell someone in pastoral counseling, I think you need a personal relationship with the Blessed Virgin Mary. You know, that's that's where you need you need her to come and help heal you and help guide you. And I couldn't do that. I I had I had my conviction had gone past the limits of my tradition that I belonged to, and that forced a crisis for me.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

So, Kevin, was it was it kind of a natural heart movement for you? This sounds like part you know, study, part practice, and also someone's or some somebody's working on your heart at the same time. It it's it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

Yeah, it was all together, Jack. And it's funny you say that because I don't know that I could really parse them out as happening separately, but there definitely was this deep abiding sense that I was close and I was getting closer. But it seemed like there was something that had been defined for me that I hadn't fully adopted or embraced. And that's when I started reading St. Thomas. We had we started reading the catechism. Cooper White, as you mentioned before, is a good friend of mine. We were reading the catechism together and starting to just behold the beauty and wonder of the Catholic faith. And start becoming haunted.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah, I was gonna say, Kevin, was there part of you as you're as you're reading all this? I'm sure you know there's this beauty, and you're like, okay, something is true and real here, but is there a part of you that's like, I do not want this to be true? Like, did you was there a hesitation where like I do not want to become Catholic?

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Absolutely, because it meant that I would have to give up what I saw as my everything I had dedicated my adult life to to that point, and then it would have caused so much heartache with family and friends and creating rifts and relationships. And I really loved the the Anglican leadership and and the people that I was kind of working alongside of within the Anglican tradition there, and we belonged to the community, and so many things were going against me. But you know, St. John Henry Newman talks about the conscience, and

Conscience Awakens And Conversion Crisis

SPEAKER_02 25:10

it's a sacred thing, right? It's it's the aboriginal vicar of Christ deep within you speaking his truth. And obviously, you can cover it up, you can put you can put dirty laundry on it, you can do whatever you want and muffle it, but it that voice just started coming alive in me, and I couldn't unhear it, I couldn't unsee it. And that's that started the crisis of of conversion, which everybody who's gonna convert or even reverts, I talk to, you know, it there's always the that that kind of phase of crisis for for folks, and and you kind of have to decide what you're gonna do with it. Sure. And for me, it was pretending I didn't see what I had seen, or keep looking at it and see what happens. That was those were the options.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Well, you know, I think it's uh I think it's important to just, you know, because people to point out on this, because I mean people are are at a lot of different places on their journey, and I think just I I give you a lot of credit, Kevin, because I think it is very easy, and I'm sure there is infinite justification in our own minds to cover these things with laundry. You know, you come up with all the different excuses of just to not focus on these questions and this kind of that that conscience pulling at you, and and it's hard because it's not just a simple math equation. Oh, I agree with the Catholic Church, I'm becoming Catholic now. I mean, there is so much weight behind all this with friendships, with family, your life. I mean, yeah, I mean, I don't know if you were full, was this your full-time occupation, or were you doing something else on the side too? Or I don't know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Yeah, the Lord was very gracious to me in this process. I was non-stipendary, so I had a full-time job along with the services I was providing as an Anglican priest there. So that that is a factor that I will admit I I have incredible admiration for people that make that jump and and face the financial reality as well. The Lord protected me from that, um, maybe because he he knew I would be too weak in some way to to navigate that. But it was that that was thankfully not on the radar. But but I I also was starting to get haunted by what happens if I keep believing this. That's I'm I'm gonna be a bad Anglican priest if I keep believing this. I I can't I can't hold up a host, even if I believe it's licit or even if I believe it's valid, right? Like even if I believe I have apostolic succession and and my consecration actually does confect the sacrament based on my conviction, I'm not in communion with Rome. I'm not in the in in participation with the hierarchy under the Holy Father. And so even if it is valid, it's not licit. And and just that conflict in that and that and that kind of haunting feeling of where that would take me. And I can't remember if it was uh G.K. Chesterton or somebody who said, why did you convert? He's like, Well, I don't want to go to hell. In that sense, in that sense, when you know deep in your heart that it is true, and that if it's true, I need to act and I need to do something about it. And then if I don't, I I could see it leading, I could see it actually leading me to hell eventually. Because and and and this is a sacred thing. I'm not I'm not gonna say, like, hey, if you're thinking about Catholicism and struggling with it, and you don't choose Catholicism, you're gonna go to hell. No, no, no, that's not what I'm saying at all. But for me, in my conscience, where God was speaking to me, I couldn't, I couldn't turn away. It was it was too tied up to everything that I wanted in him. So that's I kind of gave up at that point, lost the argument.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Uh if you're comfortable sharing, if not,

Marriage Discernment Without Pressure

SPEAKER_01 29:10

no problem. But the the dynamic too with with your wife, what was if you if you're open to sharing, you know, what was her journey like with Catholicism? Were you guys tracking kind of step for step, or was you know, this very difficult for her? Yeah, what what did that look like with your marriage?

SPEAKER_02 29:27

She saw it coming and she didn't want to have to deal with it, but then when it got so far along, it became an issue. She was not wanting to wrestle with the question. So the way we say it is I forced the question, but I did not force the answer. So, you know, we it got to a point where I was like, I I don't know, I don't know if I can stop this. And we had an honest conversation about it. You know, I I you know it's it's funny, it's kind of when you're deciding something, it's kind of a mysterious thing. You know, if you think back, a big decision, you're like, when did I actually make that decision? You know, it's kind of like cement drying. You know, you go back and you you check it, and it's like, ah, still a little wet, still a little wet, but not as wet as it was before. And then eventually it's like, well, that's rock hard. How did I, how did I I guess I believe it now? And so the the cement had not been fully hardened for me. But we we kind of knew it was moving in that direction. And so we decided that I would I would not try to influence her at all. She would start doing her own investigation. So really all I did was pray for her, and and she would she would ask me a question and and I would try not to answer. I would say, what so let's go talk to the RCI, RCIA director about this, or you know, try because I I didn't want to I didn't want to influence that because I guess it's a side note, but the thing that really struck me about the Catholic Church is that nobody was actually trying to force me in. I never once felt pressured, never once felt like somebody was trying to coerce me. And I and I had sensed that even then, and so I knew I couldn't do that to her. I remember one time she was reading Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn, and and she, you know, had the book, she had the book in her face, and you know, I'm sitting in the chair, and she's sitting kind of across from me, and she put the book down, and she said, Scott and Kimberly spent years not being in the same church. We are not doing that. And all I said was, okay, honey. I didn't know what she meant. I didn't know if she was like, hey, I'm coming, I'm ready, I'm making, or you're just gonna wait. I I at that point I didn't know. But eventually what happened is she couldn't unsee it either. You know, she worked through, seriously worked through the questions and the issues and wrestled through them. And so our journeys were different, but eventually when it came time for us to finally commit and convert, we were all on the same page. But we did that in a very sacred space. We didn't we didn't inform family and friends that we were not on the same page and working through it. We had some trusted friends who were kind of in a similar journey, but it was a it was a it was a really important critical moment because something could have come in to wedge that if we didn't protect it.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Well, I think that's because I think you're not alone, Kevin. I think there's a lot of guys going through different situations where, yeah, maybe they're going through this exact same thing with their with their wife right now, maybe with a fiance or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 32:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

And uh and I think you know what you just shared is a great model for guys to really respect their freedom, you know, and how you talked about just praying, praying for your wife and and giving her her own space, just like you had your own. I mean, I think that's very powerful that uh you know, just what you had said, that you were not coerced into our Catholic faith. I think that's yeah, a beautiful testament to kind of the mystery of Catholicism, that it doesn't, you know, we're not we're out there on the street corners necessarily you know pushing you in, but it draws in in its own way.

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yeah, and I think that there are maybe for some of the guys out there that are kind of in that space and and trying to navigate it. One of the things I realized was that for for the woman to go through the process of deciding, am I gonna convert? It's really about for the guy, it's like, where am I gonna do battle? Right? Like, we're we're where where's my soldier? Where's my army? Where's the line? How do I get to the line so I can fight? And for the for the woman, it's where's my home? And that's a hard place because you're part already part of a community that's very much your home. It's where your friendships are, it's kind of everything that you've centered your home life around. It's it's how you know where you're when you're home, when and where you're home. And so for us, I think it's just the Lord's providence, really. We ended up getting to spend a lot of time with other Catholic families and pray with them and spend time getting to know them. And what we realized for my wife over time was, hey, this this is a place that could be home for me. This is a place where I can, you know, work through the issues with, oh, I'm having trouble with this kid or that kid, and and and and and this is a place where I can bring meals to people, and people can bring meals to me. And and once we started kind of getting to a point where that felt comfortable, the intellectual decision became became more feasible for her. But but I think for for us guys, we're just like, where are we going to do battle? But for for our wives, th they're not thinking about battle. They're they're thinking about where where can we nurture? And that's a that's it's a it's a just a different process and takes understanding, I think.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

You know, as you're talking, it made me think of you know this analogy of the Catholic Church is just this mansion. And you know, there's a lot of ways to get into the heart of that home. You know, you can go right through the front door, a back door, side door, windows. I mean, there's just a lot of ways to to come into to this great to this great place. And I think it's having that mindset and reverence for people just trusting, look, there's it might not, what drew me in might not draw in my wife, or might not draw in in a friend. And that's okay. You know, God uses a lot of different aspects of the beauty of our Catholic faith to draw people, to draw people home. Um, you know, I think as we kind of come towards the end here, Kevin, I think, you know, it's a beautiful story. And I think what I what I definitely want to spend a little bit of time as we wrap up here is, you know, what is what has Catholicism done for your life now? What has it done for your marriage, for your children? What is your day-to-day, your prayer life, you know, participating in the sacraments, all of that practical theology really coming together. Yeah. Yeah, if you could unpack that.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

I was thinking about this, and and I think I can tie this to the long thread of my own conversion story. I came from a tradition where it was a lot of alone, Christ alone, faith alone, grace alone, and and there's a lot of good intentionality there. And and the way I looked at Catholicism was it was just it was just excess, right? But I've come from a reduction, you know, Christ alone, only Christ, only the Bible. I came from a kind of a sense of re a kind of well-intentioned reduction. Catholicism is a party. It's it's like the table is full, you know,

Catholic Life As A Full Table

SPEAKER_02 36:40

like you're you know, hey, hey, we got saints over here, and and you know, you walk into the party and like, oh, there's there's the uh the the uh guardian angels, they're over there, and then and you're like, there's some stuff I don't understand even understand, you know. I don't know, I indulgences still don't understand, hey, but they're there and I'm for it. Let's do it, you know, and and and uh somebody puts some put somebody put some beads in your hand. Great, this is great, this helps me. And and then you're like, wait, there's this divine office that I can just kind of breathe with the church and and and just get into a deep rhythm there uh with the liturgy of the hours. Great, all right. Like, and and and then come to find out that all that excess is actually God, what I thought was excess is actually just God's abundant mercy and gifts that he wants to give his church. That and you know, we have our lady who is has been an incredible source of healing for me. And so I feel it's a party. Uh that's how I feel. I feel like I the table is full, but the biggest challenge when the table is full is not taking it for granted. And not uh not becoming like the the first son in the prodigal uh son story where you you just the the you kind of get curmudgeonly or you get hung up on stuff and uh you know, hey, we're here, the party is here, you can get your sins forgiven over there, just go do that and then come back and keep partying. But for me, I think that framework has just really helped me see just the wonder of the thing that I've stumbled into by God's grace, and so happy to be in it together with some great friends that my conversion has really provided for me, and I think it's staying with those friends. For me, that like I said, the the liturgy of hours is is something that really helps me. I it there's so many, so many devotions you can gravitate toward. Uh there are too too many to to really be able to do, which is itself a wonder. But I think the other thing that it's given me is integrity. Not not personally, like I'm still working on integrity. I have a lot a long way to go, but a sense of integrity about the world. Because Catholicism, everything fits, you know, everything fits in Catholicism and it gets corrected and honed and and put within the proper uh understanding of how God created the world and gave us his super abundant grace beyond that. And yeah, you you encounter something, I can fall back on just this full robust integrity that God has given to the church, even looking forward with AI, with you know, some of the things there. No, no, nobody's speaking authoritatively right now except for the church on AI. And it's just brilliant, it's amazing. And so that was I don't know if that that was probably like more than an answer to your question. No, no, it's just um, but those are the kind of thoughts that are swirling around.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

Well, you know, no, that's a that's a beautiful, that's a beautiful answer. And I and it's funny because I think I I remember a period in my own life when, you know, I was away from the Catholic faith, and I remember my mom trying to kind of nudge me back, and there was a Matthew Kelly book, Rediscover Catholicism. She's like, you know, why don't you read this book? And I just I was so turned off. I mean, it was just the door was closed. I did not want to see any of these things. But I think what I've heard you what I've heard you share, and I've had this own experience is once you once you see it, you can't unsee it. You know, it it's just when you see the beauty, like I love that word that you shared of integrity, where you see everything fit together, you can't unsee that no matter what you do. You see all these pieces come together. And I think that is the real beauty and gift. Uh, one of the great gifts that Catholicism offers that I experience daily is just this ability to allow our intellect and our will to rest fully and confidently in the authority of the church. That it will not lead us into error. I think there are so many people that are wrestling with these questions, wrestling with doctrines, wrestling with moral issues. And the church, our mother is meant to guide us and to lead us. And and it and it's it's it's it's a hook that can bear the weight. You know, as your original analogy, the bucket with all the rocks is it can bear the weight. It's meant to bear the weight. God created it to bear the weight, and you can rest. And it's not a total surrender of your just a blind fudism. It's it's there are reasons, there's motives of credibility. It there is evidence to show you this is an authority worth trusting. You know, this is the authority that can bear this weight. So you don't, it's not an abandonment of your intellect, but it's recognizing the truth of who the church is. It gives us that evidence so that we can, in total peace and total confidence, say, I'm gonna put my entire weight here on this. And and it's absolutely such a beautiful, it's such a beautiful journey because there are so many countless questions that come up. And the question is, well, where do you go? You know, where how do you how do you figure these out? I remember at the gym talking to a uh a guy that was a Protestant pastor, and he was talking to me about this conversion that he was having about contraception, and him and his wife are recognizing it's wrong. And all of a sudden, you know, he's telling me he's doing marriage prep and things like that. And I'm thinking, you know, he doesn't have the ability to outline to these couples that this is intrinsically wrong. He can say, this is what I would prefer not to do, and this is what my wife and I are starting to do, but there is no foundation to actually form these couples with an objective truth. And and that's that's I mean, we can that's a whole nother conversation, but there's so many limits, and it's just it's it's highlighting kind of the beauty of what you're what you're talking about there.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Um this was so incredible, and I would imagine Kevin's probably not that familiar with Claymore Militus Christie, this apostolate we have for for young men. But if young men are listening and they go, okay, where do I start? What do I do? We have an apostolate that makes it, I'm gonna say, pretty dang simple, that puts this

Claymore Formation For Men Explained

SPEAKER_00 42:55

in a in a lays a foundation for young uh men to walk into, starts with all these things you guys are talking about, the awe and wonder of the human heart, the awe and wonder of marriage and the family. How do you restore culture? What is what is patriotism? A whole foundation. And uh Mark, you want to talk a little bit about that? And and uh I would love Kevin to become more familiar with that because uh it's obvious that his heart is huge. And what it does, Kevin, and Mark and uh allude to this in in our final minutes here, it's a way that allows us, everybody is empowered to very quickly, because we're all on time constraints here, and also when you're discipling a person, right, somebody that comes to you seeking the truth, it could take a lot of energy and time. Well, the the Claymore Apostolate has made it fairly easy, Mark, isn't it, to to share to share the gospel in a comprehensive way that'll really help help guys dive into this.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

Yeah, I'll just say a couple quick words on this. I mean, one, I'm so there's fifty two aspects. In this book, and it's meant to be, you know, they're short five, 10-minute reads, so it could be done daily, weekly, but I I mean it's meant to really bring people into that mansion and give them a nice comprehensive arc of our Catholic faith from, as Jack said, our social teaching, morality, theology, philosophy. Because there's so many men, myself included, that just don't have formation. They don't, they don't know how to see the world. They're formed by the culture. And so it gives them a proper lens of how to of how to see the world. And it, you know, I I'm maybe about halfway through it right now. And I just told Jack before we got, I mean, I'm just continually amazed at how beautiful it is. I mean, the truth, when it speaks to me, it's just like this is this is so beautiful. This is what every man needs to hear because people are hungry for the truth. And, you know, I think it's St. Irenaeus that said, the glory of God is man fully alive. You know, this truth sets us free. It's like I I make the analogy of like when I look at my old self in high school and college and after college, it was like I was I was like a zombie. It was like I was drunk and I'm like continually waking up. And and this waking up is not me becoming less alive, it's becoming fully alive and actually becoming a human being. And I can see these old patterns of sin and vice and saying that that person wasn't alive. You know, that person was a slave. And so that's the power of Claymore, is it's it's meant to for men to become fully alive, to have proper formation, but ultimately to do it with friendship. As you you said, Kevin, you can't do this without community. It's not meant to be done in isolation, it's meant to be done over a beer, a cup of coffee, get together with the guy, you know, and so it's it's a great resource. I really think it is the ability to change lives. And so I think what's powerful too is when you're aware of this and you say, all right, God, show me who you want me to talk to, there's just guys left and right that'll start popping up in your life. This guy I could give this book to, this guy could give this book to. I mean, everyone is hungering for the truth. So I think, you know, if you're hearing this and you're you're interested, I think just make that prayer to, you know, God, who who in my life is looking for answers to these questions and they'll start popping up. And and then, you know, order one of these books online, order two of them, one for yourself, one for him, and just start talking once a week, and and you'll you'll see lives change.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

And it's more than a book, it's it's called, and and you alluded to it, Kevin, when you first came in, you know, a guy wants to pick up a sword and go to battle. Claymore is a sword. It's that big sword that was made famous by William Wallace in the movie Braveheart. It's a uh two-fisted sword that could actually as gruesome as it sounds, take out a horse's leg. It's a big heavy sword. So that's our that's our logo. And there's just two asks, guys. You know, the first thing, and you'll find it very simply in there because we talked about a lot of things. Uh, before you look at that phone in the morning, you do what we call the 10-minute Claymore morning ritual. You drop to your knees before all this stuff floods in, praying with temptation, all these things that we all need to do. And then read one of these acts, and and it's gonna appeal it back. So it's 10 minutes in the morning, five minutes before you go to sleep at night, 15 minutes, and you you start your day opening yourself up, even if you'd never prayed before. It's gonna show you how to do that, bring you into the story that we're talking about, uh, this party uh that that Kevin was was saying, because it really is. And and what Mark said, it's so beautiful to be able to share this with somebody. So I'll I'll make sure I'll put the the website in the show notes. I'll leave it to you guys for closing words here. But say thank you so much, Kevin. You're you're such a gift. And of course, Mark has been a gift to the John Paul II Renewal Center into my life for many, many years now. So uh thank you so much, both of you.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Well, I want to just end with one last question, Kevin, before I'll leave it, I'll leave it at this. You know, there's a lot of men, as we've talked about, asking questions, seeking. What advice do you have for a guy that right now is thinking something's not right in the world? I'm open

Go To Adoration And Do Not Quit

SPEAKER_01 48:00

to Catholicism, maybe for the first time in my life or reversion. You know, what what advice would you have for a guy like that? Go sit in front of him.

SPEAKER_02 48:08

Just go go to go to adoration and just you don't have to believe it yet. But it'll be quiet, it'll be a place for you to untangle your thoughts, just sit. Just sit. It's called exposition because he's exposed. But what really happens is we get exposed to him. And he will he will be patient with you, he will not be frustrated at you, he will not try to force you against your will. But he will work with you and let him let him work with you in the quiet, in that moment. And then don't be afraid to reach out and ask. Because it's it's worth fighting for. You know, if you decide that you're convinced against it, it's worth fighting for. It's worth trying to get to a conclusion on because you're not gonna find peace until you find until you find rest. And it's a process. You'll get there. Just don't give up.

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Yeah, no, that's beautiful. It's a great, great way to end. Well, Kevin, thank you for your time. We appreciate it. This was a great conversation that I think will bless a lot of guys' lives. So uh yeah, thanks, Jack. Thanks, Kevin.