#737 Fr. Brian Gannon, Executive Dir. of Courage Intl: "Intellectually Dishonest Document Wounds the Church"

Confusion spreads fastest where people most need clarity, and right now a lot of young adults are walking back into the Catholic Church because they are done with half answers. Jack sits down with Father Brian Gannon, pastor of St Teresa Church in Connecticut and executive director of Courage International, to talk about truth, mercy, and the spiritual battle surrounding sexuality and discipleship.

We explain what Courage International actually is: a Church-sanctioned apostolate serving men and women who experience same-sex attraction and who freely choose to live according to Catholic teaching. 

Father Gannon directly answers an accusation that surfaced around the Synod on Synodality’s “study group #9,” namely that Courage promotes reparative or conversion therapy. He calls that claim false and lays out Courage’s real mission: chastity, friendship, prayer, formation, and sacramental life, plus EnCourage support for parents and loved ones who want to stay faithful while loving well.

If you want a serious, compassionate, and plain-spoken Catholic conversation about same-sex attraction, chastity, and the truth that sets us free, press play. Subscribe, share with a friend, and leave a review so more people looking for clarity can find the show.

Visit Courage International to learn more

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Claymore Milites Christi

Transcript

Young People Searching For Truth

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to the Claymore Become Who You Are podcast, the production of the John Paul II Renewal Center. I'm Jack Riggert, your host. Father Brian Gannon is back with us. Father, we have a, I was just telling you before we came on, we have a an apostolate within the John Paul II Renewal Center for young people coming back into the church. And we know it's a spiritual battle there. And what they're asking us, Father, is what is the truth of things? You know, that's why they want to come into the Catholic Church, is because they they tried other churches, they tried the secular world, they are anxious, they're getting depressed, they're wondering, is there a truth out there? They're finding it in the Catholic Church. And now this ambiguity, this confusion wants to come into certain sectors of the church. And so it's you're such a gift, Father, and you're in the middle of this confusion, and you have such a clear voice. And the last time you were on the show, you it was so wonderful. It was a while back. But uh, let me just tell people that my father, I'll say this, Father. My father is a World War II vet. He's he's uh he's almost a hundred years old. He will be very, very soon. And so I we bring him to the VA once in a while, and they they tell him, Thank you for your service, you know, for fighting in World War II. Well, this is what I'm telling uh faithful priests now, father, thank you for your service. Because you're you're you're battling a major battle, just like we all are, trying to be faithful. And my dad would uh say, and you could hear that you you know from World War II vets, and and other soldiers throughout history. Sometimes you'd get friendly fire, you know, but it would be accidental. And they take out some of the soldiers, you know. It was very tragic. And now we're getting some friendly fire, and you're specifically on the front lines fighting these battles, and you're taking what we what we would hope would be friendly fire, but it's not so friendly, Father. This time, the the the the friendly fire is actually shooting at us, and so you're caught into a into a vice. So, with all of that, all of that uh said, Father is a pastor of St. Teresa in uh in Connecticut, and also the executive director of Courage International. Father, first of all, I'll say thank you so much for being here. Uh you're you're such a gift to all of us. And uh, you know, I have a brother uh that was caught up in homosexuality that actually on his deathbed, uh dying of AIDS, brought me back into the church. That's why I'm here today. And so these these uh these topics are very near to my heart. I could see what happens when sexual confusion gets twisted and distorted. How much of a tr uh a toll it can take on a young person's life. Um, if we don't mind, Father, th this is spiritual warfare we're in. Can you start us out with uh with a prayer, Father?

Opening Prayer And The Mission

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Absolutely. Let's pray. In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Amen. Heavenly Father, we place ourselves in your presence. We thank you for the many gifts you have given us, our lives, our families, and most of all, the gift of your most holy son, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who suffered and died for us, but rose from the dead to give us the all the great hope of eternal life. Our Lord said to us, I have come to bring the truth, and the truth will set you free, and so that we may always be faithful to that truth, that truth that underlines true compassion, true love, true mercy, and of course, ultimately the most authentic love of all. Love of you, love of neighbor. We ask you to fill us with strength and courage to be faithful to that truth, to be faithful to your love, so that we may grow in a true authentic love with one another. We pray through Christ our Lord. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 3:42

Thank you so much, Father. Father, uh, how do you do it? How how how are you a pastor of a of a thriving uh church, and then also the executive director of Courage International? I mean, both of those are more, not just full-time jobs, but more than full-time jobs. That you know, the faithful priests like yourself are given so many tasks now. It's an amazing amount of uh workload. I I don't know how you do it, Father. Okay, you know, can can can you shed some light on on how you do do it?

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, everything goes back ultimately to the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit's very kind, very challenging. And um and I have to say, um, on a on a very practical level, I'm very grateful for the incredible staff I have here at St. Teresa Church, dedicated, wonderful uh ladies who work in the office in uh in our religious ed program everywhere, and then also the same thing at Courage. It's a remarkable staff, um a little bare bones, but people who are passionate, very dedicated, and so who execute so much uh uh good um good work on behalf of Courage International. And so th that is how the Holy Spirit works in so many ways. I kind of come in and and do what I can on it literally, as you said, on a on a part-time basis. And um and I and great credit, Father number one, Father Harvey was the very holy and good man who founded Courage and was Courage executive director for approximately twenty-five years or more.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

And then um Was that about 45 years ago or so, Father? It started with long. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

We would be, and even it'll be 46 years in September. It was in September of 1980, uh in New York City, Holy Rosary Parish, where he founded the very first chapter. And one of the beautiful things, and as a side note, is that we even have a couple of those uh members still with us remarkable. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Well, let's talk for our audience, uh, Father, uh uh just a little bit about courage.

What Courage And EnCourage Do

SPEAKER_01 5:36

I know we're gonna come up against times, but give us a brief account on courage because you do incredible work. And and just like the young people that we're talking to coming into the church, you know, we all have we're we're all sinners in some way, you know, we all uh are dealing with our issues. Courage actually helps people with same-sex attraction. And tell us a little bit about uh that that work, Father, with Father uh John in the beginning and how you're feeling about it now. And because it's is it all over the world, you know? I know priests in many dioceses that are active in in this, and the fruit of that is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Going back to um, I guess you know, Father Harvey was asked to start this apostolate at the behest of Cardinal Terence Cook in New York back in 1980. And of course, that was manifested from what we see from the 1960s, the 70s, and a and a deeper and deeper realization of these uh men and women who experience same-sex attraction, and the church needed a a much more um structured, formal outreach. You know, the sheep, bring the sheep back to the loving uh embrace of the shepherd, Jesus Christ our Lord. And so again, Father Harvey was exemplary in that. And so he built up a beautiful, beautiful uh um organization, courage with the Holy Spirit. And then I just give great credit to um Father Paul Czech, who was here for about 10 years as executive director, and then Father Bill Phil Bachansky, who was here for a number of years as well. They did a magnificent work in building it up along with our great staff. And so uh and right now and uh Father Colin Blatchford is the full-time priest with us, and he's doing remarkable work, very, very dedicated and uh and just helping to uh form clergy all across the country. So that's actually the structure of it is that um at the local level we have chapters that are moderated by either priests or deacons. That's a part of it. It's always a priest or a deacon who moderates the individual chapters all across the world, for that matter. And then uh we have probably I always this this number is is always kind of moving, but somewhere around 200 chapters um of courage itself. So so the people who come to the courage meetings, the men and women who are people who experience same-sex attraction but want to live by the church's teaching, they understand there's not going to be happiness the way the culture is telling them to indulge and just follow the whims of your passions. But the truth, but it's gonna be in the truth of Christ that sets us free. I always think of, you know, the person who actually told Cardinal Cook, you want to look at Father John Harvey, it was the famous uh Father Benedict Rochelle, and he had a great book called The Courage to Be Chaste. It was a very good book in its time. And that's, you know, what you think about the title Courage and the Courage to Be Chaste in the world today. It's so such an apropos title for Courage International, because the world, again, is telling us to follow the whims of your passions. So um, so that that's at the local level. And then also a few years after that was the founding of NCourage with a capital E. And that is for family members. Uh many times it's parents who have children, sons and daughters who have same-sex attraction, and in many cases have wandered uh away from the church. And these parents, these brothers and sisters, these family members, they want to stay absolutely faithful to the church's teaching, but they want in any way they can, you know, to reach out to their brothers and sisters and um family members who they love very, very much, and do whatever they can to uh be faithful to Christ first, which is always the call of the gospel, which is our only true hope, but then to reach out and hopefully with God's grace. And God's grace has done incredible things over the centuries, whether it's Monica praying for Saint Augustine, you know, in the uh fourth century, and after 20 years, I I kind of like to half joke with people who are like, Father, been praying for my and I said, remember, Augustine was on and off living with a saint, and it took him 20 years, you know. So just keep it up, keep it up. Monica kept it up. And then, and who's one of our patrons as well. And then to this day, uh, you think of uh I the remarkable example, a little bit different, but in the latter 19th century, Bartolo Longo in outside of Naples in Pape, he he um became a satanic priest and he just became and he just diminished, and and then he he finally he found Christ returned, and now he's a saint. I you know, and so it's just a remarkable testimony. We do not underestimate the power of God's grace, and do not underestimate how God's grace can uh yeah, can touch the human heart in so many, so many ways. So, so encourage and uh is a very, very important part of courage as well. Where I believe we have over 200, well over 200 chapters with them combined. And again, um with the staff that oversees and answers questions. We're setting up a conference in uh we have an annual conference for many, many years. So this year we have our annual conference in July at uh Mundaline uh in um in Chicago. And so not far from me, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's right. A number of wonderful speakers, breakout sessions, mass every day. We'll have several bishops in attendance, which shows the uh the wonderful support of the uh the episcopacy as well. And if I actually backtrack to the structure of courage, we have um an executive board uh with priests and lay laymen and laywomen who have particular wonderful skills and talents and gifts that they bring to the executive board, as well as the priests with great uh great deal of experience. And then we have an episcopal board as well of seven bishops who are very supportive and meet several times a year um to support uh courage in whatever way you you know they can. So we we're we were publicly declared a I always there's that specific canon uh excuse me, that specific uh canon law title of uh what um uh what courage is. Uh and I always the wording is uh is very, very technical. But anyway, but we're sanctioned by the church, we have an episcopal board, and so we're the largest uh outreach uh uh organization for those who experience same-sex attraction with with an episcopal board in in the church, which brings us back to the Vatican document, the s the synod, or I should say the the the document from uh uh the synod on synodality, and all the more reason why courage should have been absolutely included in that conversation, and it simply was not.

Synod Study Group Nine Concerns

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Yeah, let's talk about that. So the Synod of Synodality has been going on for a long time. I've talked about it uh uh a number of times my concern right from the beginning of this thing, Father, and I was involved at a uh diocesan level um right from the very beginning. It struck me right off the bat that that this something historical was happening. I'd like to to to see if you if you'd be willing to shed some light on this if you feel the same. That it was historical from this standpoint, uh, father, that we've always had sinners in in the church, all of us are sinners, but even in in the religious, right? Priests, we even had popes that were went off the reservation, you know. Uh but they never tried to change doctrine. You know, they it they could live sinful lives, but the beauty of this faith, Father, and this is so important to our apostolate for these young people we're meeting because they want the truth of things, and this beauty of this faith has been coming down to us. What we've seen, what I've seen, let me speak for myself, and I don't I don't want to get you in in into any hot water. You just say what you want to say, Father, so I'll put a caveat on there. For me, uh, right away the red flags went up, and I said, they're they're gonna try to change doctrine here, and now with this uh with the synod uh study group number nine, that's what I have a feeling. Look at they're they're going to take this beauty of this doctrine and try to twist and distort it. And this is happening in real time right in front of us, and it's causing uh confusion. I think we have to hit this head on. We have to have the, you know, speaking of courage, we have to have the courage to hit this right on, Father, and and not be afraid to talk about it because there's an urgency here uh to keep the beauty of our faith. And I think I think we all have to stand up laity, uh priest, laity, every you know, bishops and the pope has to stay. Hey, what is the truth of this? And and it when I'm reading this document, it is such a word salad of craziness, and then you see what they're finally the nugget that they're trying to change. And uh so let's talk about the synod group number nine, Father, because uh they address homosexuality and and it and really an acceptance of of homosexuality, but they also involved courage, didn't they? They they they brought up courage through through a couple of uh of so-called witness uh testimonies there. So I'm gonna throw it back at you, Father. You tell us your your your view on this and and how it's affecting you and and the work that you're doing. And it's uh it it's really unfair. Well, it it it makes me angry, and I I'm gonna smile through this thing uh because I it the anger doesn't need to be in here. We just gotta speak the truth.

SPEAKER_00 14:44

That's right, that's right. Um we can have anger, righteous dign indignation, right? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Thank you. But um but exactly. So the uh synod the document um that w that we're talking about in in um number nine, it so it interviews it basically talks about the experiences of two um two men who are presently in same-sex um active uh relationships, and said basically that they've they've found um a great deal of happiness and and hope in these relationships, which is utterly against the teaching of the church. And then one of them said they had a terrible experience with c courage, and courage is doing reparative therapy, or sometimes called conversion therapy, which was utterly false. We don't do that, we had never done that. And what that is, of course, is saying that uh, you know, someone comes in and said, Hey, we'll get you to change your um your your same-sex attraction to uh to a heterosexual attraction. We can do that for you. We we never do that. We never have done that, we don't do that. The the central call is the call to fidelity to God in chastity, and it's chastity that will truly set you free because ultimately that's the universal call. Chastity is reverence for the sacredness of human sexuality, human intimacy, and it's preserved strictly for man and woman in holy matrimony.

Why Doctrine Cannot Be Rewritten

SPEAKER_00 16:09

And John Paul II, you know, the great thing about it was in the um, if we go back a little bit theologically, in the in the turbulent late 60s and the 70s, with all these people trying to revolutionize uh, especially in the church, you have these dissenting theologians who are trying to argue that we can fundamentally change what Catholic teaching is about contraception and even ultimately about abortion and all sorts of things. It was crazy. Um John Paul II gets elected, which is so decisive, and he was a moral theologian in his own right, and he spoke clearly and decisively on reiterating what the fundamental teaching of the church has always been. And we can't change the deposit of the faith. And um and the interesting thing is that our Lord was very clear, and church teaching was very clear, and the popes have been clear, and Veritata's Splendor, the um encyclical, uh the first and and only, for that matter, encyclical on fundamental moral theology, was published in 1993, is very clear and decisive. The splendor of truth, right, Father? The splendor of truth, exactly. And about the immutability of the natural law, and that there are actions that are intrinsically evil, and therefore no intent, no circumstances can render them good. And so any sexual action outside of man and woman in in a sacred marriage is um is intrinsically evil. It it actually, and we always got to remember what fundamentally sin is. Sin is actually, it is a disorder. It's working against your own fundamental good. Sin in a certain sense becomes a self-inflicted wound. And we have a darkened intellect, we have a weakened will as the result, you know, the effects of original sin. And so we can't come up with the truth all by ourselves. We need God, we need a mediator, and we need Holy Mother Church, uh, Christ's bride on earth that has continually protected and been a custodian of the faith for 2,000 years, which is really what the Pope is, a custodian of the teachings of the church. And so and the beautiful thing about it is that the Catholic Church's teaching on morality have never changed. We've seen, you know, some of our brothers and sisters in other Christian faiths start voting on morality in their little in their assemblies. The church, Catholic Church doesn't do that. You know, it's what God is saying.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

You know, a couple things come to mind. I mean, you just look at them some of these uh, you know, Protestant churches per se that have you know start to to fly the rainbow flag and things. And again, we're called to love all of those people, right? I mean, you know, Christ came, I I didn't come to condemn the world, I came to save the world. And John Paul, again in uh Veritata Splendor and and and and Evangelium Vitae and other places, say, hey, the number one liberation we need is is from sin, of course, you know, and and we feel that. When we're talking about someone with same-sex attraction, uh, father, that comes to courage, like you said, you know, this is not about shock treatment, is it? You know, reparative conversion therapy. I speak about these things all the time, Father, and in different contexts too. And this is not anything like that. And tell me if I'm wrong. I mean, you've stated it in essence just now, but I just want to make this clear, especially for our younger audience, because they're taught, you know, to you you have to allow people in same-sex uh relationships uh to be married, etc. Otherwise, they can't love one another. And of course they can love one another. And and and and we're all called to love uh one another. In fact, Father, 99.9999% of the people that I love, I'm not having any type of sexual relationships with, right? I mean, we're called to love. And and uh and one of my brothers was uh sexually abused, actually, uh, when he was a child. We never knew about it until he got older. And and man, the dysfunction that came into his life from that sexual abuse story. Well, anyways, he got into a same-sex uh relationship uh because of a therapist that told him to do this. But, anyways, he found his way back into the church, father, and on his deathbed, I'm the oldest of five, he was the fourth one down. He he was the one that came back into the church. He was the one receiving the sacraments. And on his deathbed, he literally brought us back. I won't go through that whole story, but it's uh in it, he brought us back into the church because the number one thing, we forget the eternal perspective on this, right? And we just want to say, you know, love has been reduced down to a feeling and then down to this sexual act taken out of the sacred meaning behind it. So, so again, when I come into uh courage, Father, as someone that's um uh has some same-sex attractions, I'm not being forced to go there, first of all. And and so when I walk in, I'm looking for liberation. My point is I'm looking for liberation from sin. I'm feeling something, and I want the truth of things, right, Father? I mean, is this not what we're trying to help them do?

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Exactly. That's

Conscience Formation Mercy And Confession

SPEAKER_00 20:57

exactly right. You know, and the church doesn't dispatch personal experience. I'm going through a personal experience of sorrow, of grief, of um, of confusion. And we know especially an adolescent hits all of those sexual desires. They say, come on strong, they've never seen this before. They're very confused, and uh, and because we have a fall in human nature, that's that's so important. But uh and what one of the fundamentals about uh moral theology is that truth of God is prior to conscience, and so conscience has to be formed according to the truth. Conscience is not um just whatever I feel like, and then also uh it's and it truth is uh prior to experience. And we all know this, right? You know, you're in traffic and someone cuts you off and you want to curse them or you go, wow, wow, wow. And we know that's not that's a sinful response. And so the same thing goes, we can have immediate arise of passions, but that doesn't dictate truth. What dictates truth is from outside, Jesus Christ our Lord, but it's a truth that's gonna resonate with our supernatural DNA because in In the end, when you get even deeper on this, of course, we're all made in the image and likeness of God. So despite we have different skills, we have different talents, we have different experiences, but we all a desire for happiness. And because we're we're our blueprint is as the image and likeness of God, when then we will only find true happiness in in seeking God, in imitating the ultimate man, uh Jesus Christ. And of course, the most perfect human be the only perfect human being, our blessed mother. And so when we look to them for how a life, a Christian life should be led, then that is ultimately the template where we only can find true happiness and we're truly set free. Sin and slaves. And we and that's a constant um theme within the Old Testament. It was the downfall of Israel. It was warning Moses' warning to Israel in Deuteronomy, and it's our Lord, and our Lord's words and John the Baptist's words, repent, repent, you know, because we're all sinners. And so uh but but again, with courage, um and the key is is uh and we actually we we had the extraordinary, extraordinary privilege and blessing to have four of us in front of the Holy Father back in February, uh in for about a half an hour meeting in his own private office. It was extraordinary. And we focused, we had different discussions about the structure of courage and some good stuff, and then he really focused on freedom and also personal accompaniment. And that's such a key part of of courage, is that you know, the the the walking with the person who's struggling and saying, God still loves you. God, you know, and they fall father, I fall on again, I fall in again. Just get right back up and keep going forward. It's like almost like a sports coach would do, except this is operating deeper at a deeper level than sports. But um yeah, and God knows our fragility and our vulnerability, and that's why we when we come, and that's why I always like to half joke. God didn't give us one, he gave us seven sacraments because he wants to accompany us in so many ways. But confession is such an extraordinary uh example of God's mercy because everybody says, you know, I've committed the same sin a hundred times. And well, God, you know, we sincerely repent. We pay God picks us up and forgives us again and again, as he forgave Peter Peter for denying him um more than once, you know, at the Passion. And so mercy is intrinsic. But the key is that remembering that sin is sin, and you can't redefine, you know, define defining sin down, right? And uh and they create this, as you were saying before, this absolute ambiguous language that tries to base it all, you know, it's not the personal experience that's a sin, it's the I don't have the exact tur uh quote in front of me from that document, but basically um, it's the lack of of trust in God. Well, yes, but if you commit an action that's sinful, you're harming yourself. And just as a parent would we would warn somebody, don't fall into alcoholism, don't fall into drug addiction. We would say, don't fall into sin.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

The same thing on a deeper level, even when they use words like pastoral accompaniment, you you understand that every pastor, every pastor I meet with, and I that's what I do. I mean, I meet with a lot of priests, right? And we're giving uh you know various talks about all this stuff, but you know, they all have a concern for the for for for the person that walks in the door. You know, people are seeking the truth. Here's the danger, Father, uh, with it with the synod of synodalities in general, and now the Senate uh number nine particularly. Are they, Father? I'm just gonna ask you point blank because because again, you know, you cannot be pastoral and lead them into sin or at least not be not lead them to the truth of things. I mean, I'm I I I'm walking into the church, Father. I'm walking into courage because I want to know the church's teaching on this. I can always reject it later on, but I'm there. Nobody has an answer for me. The whole culture doesn't have an answer for me. All the other churches don't have an answer for me. I find the Catholic Church because I go, okay, I'm being led here. What is the truth of things? Not not the truth of your opinion, Father. Uh not not not the truth of the synod's opinion. What is the truth of things passed down to us? Is is this synod uh study group number nine, and and again the synod of synodales as a whole, father, are we trying to change doctrine here?

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Somebody may be. I I think deep down, you know, you when you get into that kind of ambiguous language, um, it it becomes highly problematic because if you can't just simply embrace what the church has always taught, and you start to suggest, you know, this very, very ambiguous language that's slippery, maybe they try to give themselves some kind of denial, uh, you know, plausible deniability. But nevertheless, yeah, it's it clearly I I was very gratified by a statement by Cardinal Van Eyck from the Netherlands because um he wrote a very clear, and he was a medical doctor, and he's a moral before he became a priest, and he was also he's also a very, very excellent moral theologian, and he was very clear about all of this, and he says this needs to be refuted dramatically. And what one interesting thing is the reaction, it reactions can be very indicative because as the uproar went up, you know, some of the leaders, and I can't say exactly who, but there was, well, well, this was actually an autonomous um document. It wasn't really under the Senate. Well, then, okay, well, then all the more reason why you should come out and condemn it. You know, oh, this was a mistake. Let's say aren't we all supposed to admit we've made mistakes? You know, and this thing is a great mistake because unfortunately, people who want to see revolution in the church's moral theology and the teaching on on hu sexual matters are taking this and they're running with it. And that's and that's gotta be s that's gotta be squashed. And when I say squashed, I mean refuted publicly, and it it's just it's gotta be clearly stated. And um we pray for that.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Yeah, if if we don't keep this deposit of faith, the Catholic Church, uh coming beautiful in its purity to us, uh we're we're the world is in trouble because there's no place else to

Marriage Natural Law And Human Love

SPEAKER_01 28:16

go. If I Father, we're we're on the line here, and and if you start this twisting and distortion, you know, you mentioned the seven sacraments. Well, John Paul uh speaks of of of the sacrament of marriage as the primordial sacrament. So let's just go, right? He he points, he just follows Jesus in Matthew 19, and and there's confusion over marriage and all these different issues, and he points us back in the beginning, it was not so. So, what is it supposed to look like? What was the model supposed to look like? And so we there was the primordial sacrament. So we're all created. You mentioned this in the image and likeness of God. We have reason, intellect, free will. We know we're different than the rest of creation. We're different than all the animals. We know that, right? We're seeking the truth of things, right? We're seeking the truth. What is the truth of things? What kind of world is this and how should I act, etc.? Well, before sin come came into the world, the fullest sign of Trinitarian love is marriage and the family. You know, it it's it's the primordial sacrament, meaning before sin came into the world, you didn't need the other, you didn't need all seven sacraments, right? Because we did there was no sin. The primordial visible sign of Trinitarian love in the world, and I'll just uh help our audience just in a second, Father. Well, 30 seconds, you know, we we know the Trinity, you know, the Trinity is a mystery, but so is my wife, is uh is a little bit of a mystery, right? Because we're talking about love. What is love? God is love, and so we we we know this, right? That the father is pouring his love out to to the son, and the son receives that love. It's so beautiful and profound, it comes out in the form of a person. We call that person the Holy Spirit. Well, you know, in Genesis chapter one, God says, We're gonna create man in our image and our likeness, this Trinitarian image and likeness. How? As male and female, in the divine image, he created them. So he he it's in essence, he's ready to bring his authentic love into the world. He's five days, he's got this whole thing set up for a wedding feast, and now boom, his love, this Trinitarian love is going to be made visible in the world, the primordial sacraments. Well, as a as a father, as a husband, I gave my life, my love to my wife. My wife received that love, and it was so beautiful and profound it came out in the form of a person a number of different times, right? We were blessed. And and so this is the sacramental primordial uh sign of the self-giving love. It is a tiny marriage in the family, it's a tiny reflection of the beauty and and in the in its efficacious of the love of the Trinity. And John Paul would say our bodies, in fact, our bodies alone make visible the invisible, the spiritual, and the divine. So our bodies were created, Father, to be a sacramental sign of Trinitarian love. And that's fruitful love. Life giving love. And and there's only one way to do that, Father, through a man and a woman. There's just you can't you can't twist and distort that. There's no life, right? There's no life. It's natural law, it's nature's law.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

And of course, it's revealed truth. That's right. I mean, actually, and it dovetails with classic moral theology, every action has to be ordered to the good, to God. And so a sexual action, especially, how is it ordered to the good, to God? And we and we define those principles from Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, the unitive and the procrative. Yeah. So anything that's outside of that is a pro is a serious problem. But is actually going to, again, it becomes a self-inflicted wound. It's the lie of the serpent. And um, Adam and Eve, you know, you're you're absolutely right about that. And I I always like to joke, I'm sitting there with engaged couples, and I said, Was there ever a perfect marriage in the history of the world? And most of the time they'll say, Well, no, Father. I said, Well, yes, there was. Adam and Eve prior to the original sin. Although one, of course, the Virgin Mary and St. Joseph would have been an absolutely the the greatest marriage ever, to say the very least. Yes. And um and I'm sure that was perfect. And um, but and it was. But but nevertheless, what I'm saying about Adam and Eve is what happens w uh as soon as they accept the uh the uh temptation of the devil, they diminish themselves, they injure their rel their relationship is perfect until they sin. And then the rise of tension, the rise of the imbalance in the relationship and the mutual exploitation that can take place is not the result of God's um God's design, it's the result of sin. And so then every part of us becomes fallen in our so sexual uh which is such an intrinsic, you know, Aquinas would say that the sexual drive is the second most powerful instinct in us, you know, after the will to survive. And so something like that, such a powerful, strong, incredible force, you know, uh we need the guidance from God on this. And and He's given us clear guidance to for 20 centuries, and there's no way that it's going to be um changed suddenly now. You know, uh but this the seeds of this go back so many years. Uh, Pius X, in his uh proclamation against modernism, right, when they start to say, well, there was the Jesus of history, but now we can redefine Christ by our own experience now to really oversimplify modernism, but that's that's what's going on. You know, my my experience is now going to define reality and truth.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

This is the synod of Synodelli, i i is that modernism on steroids, I think, father. What we're feeling it is an acceleration of uh of the this distortion. I think this is historical because I it in in a way I kind of look at I don't like sin, and I certainly don't like sin from you know within the church, but I like the idea that evil is no longer hiding. I mean, you you can it's pretty easy to make a choice right now. I mean, it's like soldiers uh attacking, but they're not hiding. They're just standing up coming at me, and there they are. And and uh so I guess if there's any goods uh good to this father, it seems like something is winding down here. Divine providence, perhaps. Uh we're we're reaching some point where where evil is no longer hiding, is it? It's it's just and I think the synod of synodality, especially this uh synod uh group number nine, has made that very clear. They're they're really trying to distort uh you know the the sacred image of our sexuality, and and no, we don't have forever here, Father. Give us your impression on that because we we have to stand up for the truth. I used to try to couch this thing more, but I I can't anymore because I'm working with young people and young adults and they're seeking the truth and and they want the truth. There's they can go anywhere else and and get you know whatever they else they want in the world. But here, Father, we want the truth.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

That's right. You you you yeah, you instinctively if you even if you bracket bracket religion for which in a certain sense we can't, but we do, we we want just give me the truth. Like the doctor sits down with you, and um and you know, I my m myself and my three brothers and three sisters, we lost our our beloved mother a year ago. And one of the virtues of my mother, who is so passionately pro-life and so and so a devout Catholic, was her candor. I mean, my mother, I mean, and it wasn't like anger, it was just like she'd be very straightforward with us about things, and it was very refreshing, but it's all and it's it's and it's what the exactly what the world needs. You're right. So we need to speak the the the truth of Christ because it it's interesting. Um as the old saying goes, no one dies for a question mark. No one dies for ambiguity. We die for a clear, and not a principle, but we die for a person. No greater love is a man than to lay down his life for another. And Christ first and foremost is the one in that by dying on the cross for us, but then by our willingness to die, not necessarily physically, but to die to our egos and just say, you know, I guess we it's time to speak the clear truth here, always with love. And uh but nevertheless, I mean, and when you read Benedict, when you read John Paul, they're they're very clear about the fundamental truth, but they say it in such beautifully pastoral ways.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Because they know, Father, that yeah, you you we're not gonna help anybody if we don't give them the the truth. You know, you you have to be discerning about that. I can't look it, we're not trying to hit anybody over the head with anything when they come in. We gotta walk with them, we gotta talk with them, but we have to be able to lead them to Jesus Christ. You know, uh we know

Scripture On Chastity And Freedom

SPEAKER_01 36:46

this. You know, Father, i it when I started to read this uh um this uh Vatican group number nine, the underlying biblical image they say is Acts of the Apostles chapters 10 to 15. They said, from this perspective, this is the synod uh uh uh paper that they wrote, the events recounted in chapters 10 to 15 of the Acts of the Apostles have proved to be of particular significance and relevance to the task entrusted to us. So I go back and read you know Acts right 15. So this is St. Paul. What they bring up here is that there was a time where they say, you know, do we all have to be circumcised in order to become basically Catholic, you know, from the Jewish tradition. And they said, No, you don't have to be. But here's the things that you do have to do. So they they strip it all down, Father, to just a couple things. Now, this is right from Acts 15 that they're referencing, the synods are referencing. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things, that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from unchastee. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Fear well. So, of all the things, we're okay, you don't have to, you know, this is something new, but don't be unchaste. And so now, where do they get that from? One more quick thing, Father. And this is from Leviticus, right? This is what the Jews understood about uh being unchaste, right? And this is a long thing, but I'll just read one little part of this, which is Leviticus uh 18, 22. You shall not lie with a male as with a woman, such a thing is uh abominable. So do not defile yourselves by any of these things which the nations which I am driving out of your way have defiled themselves. So of all the things, they pick out Acts 5, you know, 10 to 15, and Acts 15 condemns unchastity. And you go, why would you even pick that? I mean, that's what I mean by being in your face. You know, I I know what they're trying to do there. They're trying to twist things around a little bit, but but the reality is you you brought it up, Father. We have to be chaste, you know, and this is very important to us.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

That's right. Chastity will set you free. Holy chastity. And it's not repression, it's just rechanneling our energies, right? Um, it's it's uh it there's so much here. Actually, you know what I really love is um the beginning of Pope Leo's encyclical, where he uses the um analogy of the Tower of Babel and from Nehemiah the rebuilding of Jerusalem after the exile. And basically it's like, you know, what are we doing today with technology, with other things? Are we trying to build a new tower of Babel or Babbles, new towers, or are we trying to rebuild um a Jerusalem, a community that's centered on God Himself? And courage, that's fundamental to what we do. We're building a community of uh loving people, you know, and um a community that is built on the fundamental of the teachings of the church for 2,000 years. Absolutely mind. The catechism of the Catholic Church is very clear. It was a tremendous gift to the church. But then other um people who are saying we can step outside of what the church or try to change the church's teaching on it, they're building a tower of Babel, and it's gonna come crashing down, and it does come crashing down. You can't, you're not we're not smarter than God. And by doing that, you're saying you're come more compassionate than God, which is the ultimate arrogance. But um and and that's exactly what our sacrifice world is saying. We can dispatch the sexual teachings of the church, um, which means, of course, you're dispatching the authority of Christ and his bride. You're trying to disassociate Christ from his bride, you're trying to divorce Jesus from his bride, which is um impossible.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

That's such a good point. I know we're gonna have to go here in a minute or two, but if you picture Jesus on the cross, this is my body given for you, this is the bridegroom, to your point you just made. I just want to reiterate that. And he's given his life to his bride. You know, in God's order, you know, we got the you know, that's the sun and you know, the stars and and and and our world spinning around 1,100 miles an hour, and it's you know, we're revolving around the the sun at 67,000 miles an hour, and the whole thing is exploding. And God's got all this order, and he puts order into us. And but we are the pinnacle of all of that exploding and beauty around us, and that we're expressing Trinitarian love, God's actual love in the world. And here's the bridegroom coming in to give his life to this bride. Our sexuality, father, is way more than than this act of of this physical act, you know. It's sacred. That's that's what Leviticus says. It's the sacredness of this act, isn't it, Father?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

That's right. They they had severe penalties, right, for going outside of that in the Old Testament. But it part of it was was an understanding that it was just uh it would cause um a massive problem in the community, too.

SPEAKER_01 42:02

But we see, Father, what's happening to our culture today. People are waking up, though, all around me. I see people waking up and saying, No, I with this dysfunction that you're causing our children and a dysfunction in marriages, we have to have an answer for this. And and so the Catholic Church becomes this the this this hope for them, Father. If we let allow this to be distorted, Father, and the work you're doing is so important. Uh don't don't give up, Father, and and tell everybody not to give up because all the people we talk to, and I and and look at that I just experienced, they're they're they're looking for hope. And if we take this hope away, Father, I don't really see how where else the hope is going to come from. We have to keep this the uh this beautiful, beautiful deposit of faith handed down to us. Thank you so much, Father. You're on the front lines of this. Don't give up. And I know you won't, but uh, but how about for us, Father, as we go out here? I know you got a hard stop right now. Um, with all of us and the lady, especially you know, guys like me, we're out there speaking all the time, Father, and we have to tell the truth, don't we? And we have to do it in love, right? This is Saint Teresa Benedicta on her way to the to the gas chamber, right? Always speak the truth in love and love people in the truth. One without the other, it's a destructive lie, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:16

Exactly. I always loved Edith Stein. Uh there's so much there. We'll catch up the next day. But but you know what is so providential about right now, too, is today's the feast

St Charles Lwanga And Final Charge

SPEAKER_00 43:25

day of St. Charles Lawanga. And so Charles Lawanga is a patron for courage. And so he had to stand up to the king against exploiting the pages in the court, right? And um and they're not gonna be able to do it Father, tell that story real quick.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

I know you got to go, but tell that story real quick. I I can't believe that that you know this this is this is divine providence here, Father.

SPEAKER_00 43:44

Yeah, it's it's the Holy Spirit's always at work. And so um quickly, yeah, in the early part of the 19th century, missionaries uh moved into Uganda with the with the permission of the king, um, who was very sympathetic, said, yeah, go ahead. And then he dies, his 18-year-old son takes over, who becomes very, very hostile to Christian missionaries. And unfortunately, he began to practice uh homosexual actions, and especially uh look at trying to exploit those members of his court, you know, the boys in his court. So we had you had on the court uh men who were becoming Catholic, who were catechizing, and when it was revealed to the king, he would put them to death, one by and then finally put a whole group of them, including Charles Lawanga, to death because they refused to um to succumb to his advances and instead say absolutely faithful to God.

SPEAKER_01 44:33

And so um Wow, that's the feast date today. Isn't it amazing? They thought it was so important that they would die for that, Father. We you know, we we you the beauty of the sacredness of of our bodies and our souls, right? Filled with grace and to make God's love visible in the world, Father. This is a love story, and for all those with same-sex attraction, you are called to love, and you're called to love everyone. And uh but just you know try the church, try Jesus Christ, huh? And and and I think you're gonna find something deep in your heart, huh?

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Give yourself over to the source of infinite authentic love, and then you will experience the most freeing and most joyous love of all.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Yeah, we don't think it's possible, but I I know it is, and you know it is, Father. From and and I'm not talking about our own personal thing. I'm talking about people that we meet, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 45:28

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 45:29

Father, you're such a gift. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And and and and thank you for courage and and thank you for the time that you give to us here, but to all of these people, Father. It it's amazing. Uh a good priestess is amazes me, you know, amazes me.

SPEAKER_00 45:47

Thank you for your generosity, Jack. It was great to be with you here and to talk about these things. And we pray just pray for current and pray for our culture at large. There's a big awakening going on. There is, as you were saying, about among the youth, a a great awakening, I think.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

And nothing like something like this to get us all riled up and get and expose the truth. Father, thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks, everyone. Thanks for joining us today. Talk to you again soon. Bye bye.