Become Who You Are
What’s the meaning and purpose of my life? What is my true identity? Why were we created male and female? How do I find happiness, joy and peace? How do I find love that lasts, forever? These are the timeless questions of the human heart. Join Jack Rigert and his guests for lively insights, reading the signs of our times through the lens of Catholic Teaching and the insights of Saint John Paul ll to guide us.
Saint Catherine of Siena said "Become who you are and you would set the world on fire".
Become Who You Are
#616 Anxiety: A Catholic Guide To Freedom From Worry and Fear
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Anxiety has infiltrated every corner of modern life, from casual conversations to clinical settings, creating what Art Bennett and Dr. Lianna Bennett Haidar aptly call "the age of anxiety."
Their new book along with Lariane Bennett, Anxiety: A Catholic Guide To Freedom From Worry and Fear... offers profound insights into why anxiety has skyrocketed across all age groups and how Catholic wisdom provides unique pathways to freedom.
Discover how your brain works; how biology, temperament, and past experiences contribute to anxiety; how to respond to anxiety calmly and rationally; and how to evaluate professional-help options.
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I am excited and grateful to be with Art Bennett, who's co-authored seven books with his wife Lorraine three books on temperament. Art's a licensed marriage and family therapist with more than 35 years of clinical experience you look too young for that. Art Currently practicing at Bennett Consulting and Therapy LLC. Their forthcoming book, along with their daughter, leanna Bennett Hadar is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 15 years of clinical experience and a private practice located in Alexandria, virginia. The book Anxiety A Catholic Guide to Freedom from Worry and Fear, was co-authored with the three of them. And how did you come together to decide to do this together? I mean, it's probably a big task and if you have some people around, everybody can add something to the mix here, right?
Speaker 2:I think that's right. Jack, Do you mind if I go?
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, good. So Leon and I are clinicians and we were noticing a lot more people coming in with anxiety. That's not unusual in the clinical world that's often where people go to get help with it, but that was definitely on the increase. Some of it can be explained by COVID, but even independently, even prior to COVID and post-COVID. But the other thing we started to notice is just in the day-to-day, just talking to people about their lives, their jobs, their kids, or talking to kids about school and sports and things like that, and just so many things were being framed in terms of I'm anxious, I'm nervous yeah, I hear about this and there's always been challenges in life that never stops. But just this overlay of gosh, I don't know, kind of a layer of fear, anxiety seemed to be much more common.
Speaker 1:So we just and would you say, just to get a framework, are the ages of these you mentioned younger and does it go across the age group you practice or were you seeing this uptick in, say, anxiety, this level of nervousness in specific ages more than others?
Speaker 3:Well, so my father and I both work primarily as clinicians with adults, but I think you know, especially in our personal life, or even you know people talking about, like I have anxiety, my child has anxiety. You know we're really seeing that. You know pretty much across the age spectrum, from you know our again, you know the clinical work that we do, but also in our own personal lives, you know, with our friends and I don't know I speak for myself even even in my own life, noticing, you know, sometimes an increase in anxiety. So you know, although we are therapists you know we wrote this book you know, because we are, you know, seeing a need for help with addressing anxiety, both in our clinical work but also just in our daily life.
Speaker 3:You know that we need our friends, our family, and so we, yeah, so we wrote this book. You know, for everyone. You know this isn't like a therapist's manual.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, we see the same thing with the John Paul II Renewal Center. We speak to people across the board. We've been focusing more and more time on Gen Z just because we see a spark there and people are saying something's wrong. I'm not quite sure what's going on, but something's wrong. But anyways, I'll just give you an example. We were speaking to a group of high school kids and we're talking about love and what love is and how they should treat each other and the understanding of marriage and the family and all these big questions, identity, meaning and purpose in life. And so they're all leaning in.
Speaker 1:We had a couple of sessions that day and they were all leaning in and asking good questions and I said when I come back, remind that you want to talk about. And a girl raised her hand. She said mental illness. And I go mental illness. I said you know what do you mean by mental illness? And I looked over at the counselor and the counselor said just keep going right. And it was anxiety, depression. And the other thing she said was how come so many of our peers are talking about suicide? She said was how come so many of our peers are talking about suicide? And I said, okay, does anybody else want to talk? Maybe she's the only one right when we come back and we can put it off to another day. But all kinds of hands went up when I said does anybody else want to talk about these things?
Speaker 1:Which is a paradox. I'll just mention this thing and throw it back in your court. It's kind of a paradox because the majority of young people and I know you said you're working mostly with maybe a little bit older than this, but it goes across the board we live in an age of moral relativism, especially young people, and you would think in an age of moral relativism the anxiety would go down, because there is no sin, no objective truth, it's just my truth, your truth. But it's skyrocketed. It's skyrocketed up, you know, and so, yeah, everybody's trying to get a handle and, of course, the iPhones, social media.
Speaker 1:You know we've grown up in a toxic culture, so many of the kids and families that we speak to are broken in various ways, and so it's a recipe for disaster and for anxiety. So I throw it back at you. You know you called part one of your book I think it was section one, part one the age of anxiety. So what are we finding, you know, and what can we start to do about it? I know this is a wide subject, isn't it? Yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I think that we're definitely seeing a rise in anxiety. And you mentioned Gen Z. They are an interesting bunch because I think they really do struggle a lot, but they talk about maybe this is part of it, maybe it's good, maybe it's not. They talk about mental illness and they talk about everything more than. I think any generation before them, and so, on the one hand, I think that they're trying to sort of de-stigmatize mental health issues, but that might also be giving everyone license to have mental health issues not helpful.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's a good point Things like suicide, for example. You know, when there is a public suicide, that will raise the rates of suicides in the nation, in a community. So there can be this effect. That is not always good, even though I think talking about suicide awareness can be really helpful. There can be this like sometimes a domino effect with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we see that too. But on the flip side of that, if people can read the book right, your book here and find a way to start talking about reducing that anxiety, right, that could work the other way right, and we can help each other right to bring this level down too, because it's good for us to have some comeback right, some methods that we could say, you know, try this or try that, and this is why I think your book is so important. I want to take just a moment to acknowledge the sponsor for today's show AIM Utility Advisors, owned and operated by the Lally family, who are local Catholic friends of ours and been supporters of our work for a long time. So let me ask you a question Is your business prepared for the increased energy prices starting in June of 2025?
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Speaker 3:We'll get back to today's show. Yeah, that's a lot of. What we wanted to do is one you know. Talk about what even is anxiety? What does that feel like? What does a person experiencing anxiety? What do they experience? What are they dealing with? But also, then, to give some very practical solutions for you know what to do, how to manage it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's define that. Can we define anxiety for people out there, and is it just a nervousness? And I know you spent some time in the book defining exactly what that is?
Speaker 2:Anxiety is sometimes different from fear. Fear is a specific thing coming up that I'm really concerned about, or that guy driving in front of me is swerving. I want to stay away from him, or it has a specific object. Then you develop a strategy to address it or to minimize it or whatever. But anxiety tends to be much more amorphous. Something really bothering me. I'm not even sure what it is.
Speaker 2:Is it harder to get your handle on it. Harder to get your handle on it. I think usually anxiety also has some other qualities about it ruminating and worrying about it and playing it over and over in your head, but it doesn't seem to help much. But you can't do it and things like that. Now, to get a diagnosis, a clinical diagnosis of anxiety, it should have a variety of symptoms that last about six months. So nobody goes through a life without some anxious moments.
Speaker 2:But if you have something and it keeps bothering you almost most of the time, or often the time for a six-month period, that could be one of the criterias for the difference between being somebody worried about something and somebody being anxious about something. It just takes too much of your time and energy and it doesn't seem like there's any traction to reduce it or whatever. Worrisomeness, ruminating, a feeling of inadequacy and helplessness, a discouragement about it and also a hard time not thinking about it over and over and over again, even though there's not much progress. And then there's the discouragement of not being able to beat it. It just seems to hang around. Is there anything I'm missing at all?
Speaker 3:With anxiety often comes a very anxiety is a very physical experience that we have it's part, you know it's part of this nervous system response that we have to. You know you mentioned fear. So fear is this response that we have that is designed to help save our lives. So if there is imminent danger, something that could cause us harm, our bodies have a fear response ingrained in them to help us fight, flight or freeze to save our life. It's a life-saving response. The problem is, anxiety is usually when that system is going a little bit off track. It's either activated too much or it's kind of going haywire and so we experience all of these very physical symptoms that are supposed to help you run for your life or fight that saber-toothed tiger. But it can be about an email that your boss just sent you you know where you've got.
Speaker 3:Your heart is racing, you know palpitation and your breathing is erratic and your palms are sweaty and your stomach is turning upside down.
Speaker 3:You know these are all.
Speaker 3:There's systems going on, you know that are again designed to be able to help you run for your life.
Speaker 3:But in you know, if it's just an email like, none of that is helpful and you know, usually our brain is is essentially getting hijacked by these alarm systems and it can make it really hard for us to learn to push through or process through, because you, because all of these things that are going on in our body, is telling us to to run away, to avoid or to fight it somehow. And when we do that appropriately, you know that can save our life. But when we are using these like strategies of avoidance running away again something more benign, actually benign, not really life-threatening, like an email from your boss or a confrontation with a friend maybe then what that does is it reinforces this idea that that was something to be feared, that that was something to be avoided. And then the next time we're in that situation, that part of our brain, that sort of learned that anxiety response, it's even stronger. So anxiety does this really tricky thing, where it compounds itself and gets stronger the more you essentially give into it.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So we kind of rewire our systems, don't we? We have this existential threat and then we start to rewire ourselves, it seems I know we do this with addictions, for sure and then they become just part of us, right? I mean, they're just there all the time. And I think, when I think about anxiety and you're describing it the way, I think about it and I know it can be complex, but this is like that fear of the tiger. Now the tiger is gone and now, all day and all night, all I do is think there's got to be another tiger out there which could be true, I guess. But you can't live your life like that, can you? And constant constant.
Speaker 2:Living your life with anxiety all the time is very, it's expensive, it takes a lot of you know, rep, sleep. You're going to shy away from certain things. I mean, like it's always been awkward and maybe difficult, let's say, to ask somebody for a date that you don't know. That risk, yes, but it's not the end of the world if she says, or he says, no, it would hurt, might hurt for a while, that allows you to rethink things, but it wouldn't be something so terrifying that I'll never do it. Which?
Speaker 1:is really interesting because especially now, right with these young men that are sometimes a little socially awkward right from looking at their phones all day and it is difficult, right, it's a challenge to go out there. So we have to almost reframe that, don't we, dr Bennett, and say you know it's one thing to be nervous and you know I do this with public speaking with a lot of people that I work with. Some of them are new to public speaking and I'm bringing them out on the stage, say, for the first time and we try to reframe that nervous, what they're calling nervousness and anxiety into excitement. You know I'm excited to go out there and that's why I'm feeling like this. Be not afraid, paul would always say right, easier said than done, of course right, but you're actually right, that's a really good.
Speaker 2:We make some really good point reframe. Reframing is where you have a situation and, rather than frame it, see it as a as a cause for great fear and distress, is that? But you see it rather as an opportunity for me to grow. Yes, oh, so that's the key reframe. And you talk about public speaking, which I think is the biggest source of anxiety, because we don't do it that much. I mean, priests do it every day and, yes, you notice over the years they come much more comfortable with it because they do all the time. But what's actually happening with that little gosh I'm about to go on stage, or I'm about to go on the podcast with jack or whatever. What's really happening is adrenaline into your brain so you can think better, you'll come up with ideas, you're going to be excited, you're in a really enthusiastic. So it's actually not only is it not anxiety, it's just adrenaline getting you ready for showtime yes, yes, yes yeah, you know I'm going to go up, ask her, I'm going to do my best to do it.
Speaker 2:Reject me, I'll deal with that later. Or yes, yes, yes. And then avoidance you mentioned really early when you were talking about you were working with young kids to help them lean in. So that's kind of, I think, the best way to approach anxiety. What is causing your anxiety? Let's figure out a way to lean into it so you're safe and secure, but let's lean into it. Let's talk about how you can ask a person out, or let's give you some tips about how to interview for that job. Or let me tell you how to ask for a raise, because you got to ask for a raise, otherwise you're not going to get it. Or, uh, how to apply for this, or how to get out of that comfort zone, or how to go to the gym if you've not been there.
Speaker 2:All these things, yes, first of all, it might just be adrenaline going. God, this is exciting. But we can mislabel that anxiety. And then the reframe is the key thing around. This is an opportunity for me to fail and to show that I'm a knucklehead and nobody likes. Well, that's one way to go for the date. The other is well, you know she's attractive and I'm sure I'm not the only guy, but let me give it a shot. Let me give it a shot. That's. That's the difference between seeing a challenge versus avoiding, avoiding a anxious situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it seems like you know that's. You know you get these. You anxious situation, yeah, and it seems like you know you get these. You hear about these people and I know some of them that don't even go outside much anymore because they're afraid to see the world, and by leaning in the store.
Speaker 1:I said hi to a couple of people and they weren't so bad. And one way or the other, I think we have to almost get that frame of. You know, we can actually be. It's going to sound a little weird, but almost like heroes. I tell these young people just be a hero, go out there and be a person of love, you know, bring some joy and love into this crazy world that really needs it and be a little bit of a hero, you know, Learn to grow into that.
Speaker 1:But what you're saying is so important, you know. But you would think that this would be almost common sense. But you would think that this would be almost common sense. But unless it's modeled to them, unless somebody models and speaks like you are to them, we can get out of you know, we can get into our own little worlds instead, and sometimes it just takes somebody to break in and a little knowledge helps. If I'm going for an interview to know about the company, if I'm going to the gym a little bit about lifting or whatever that would be, you know, and public speaking, if I really know my topic, you know I'm going to be a lot less nervous than I'm stumbling around, you know.
Speaker 2:And so.
Speaker 1:I think this, this is where this really becomes helpful.
Speaker 2:I think that's right. I was talking to a men's group recently and I said how many times do you guys come home and say to your wife and your kids I'm overwhelmed, browning, I got so much to do and I go? I have an idea. I want you to stop that. Your wife's not your therapist, your kids aren't your therapist. You could talk to your wife later. You can talk to her about how work is going. But you can come home and say I real busy, that's what I want to be. I want to be busy. That's why they pay me the money, or I got a lot of my. I have to sort it out. I got to figure it out.
Speaker 2:But but I think there's such a common now. It's like, like eliana was saying, anxiety is just like in the air and it's giving all this permission to to kind of have excuses for why we're so unhappy. As a and like le also said, if you avoid stuff, it grows to avoid a problem, like I need to get more organized at work or I need to say no to this or that. If I keep avoiding that and just getting more and more, and then I come home grumpy and distant and pick kids, you know what you're saying is so important.
Speaker 1:If I walk in the door of my house and I this person of love again, like which, like I was just saying, you know, the people in my house are excited to see me. Now, all of a sudden, I walk into the house and now, you know, the kids are running toward me instead of running away from me and we actually do improve, we actually become a little I bet you, a little less anxious at that point. Right, and we can step into their story now, get away from our story and then again reframe, rewire ourselves right To be persons of love. I think.
Speaker 2:Reframe, rewire is exactly right. I mean, the interesting thing is, maybe things are, the culture kind of has a lot of cues to being anxious, but there has been a lot of science discoveries that the brain can change. We can change our response. We don't have to seeing things a certain way and leaning in. Reframing.
Speaker 2:Leonard talks sometimes a lot about breathing and calming yourself. You know when you, when you approach something with a calmness or peace, you know that's like the peace that christ gives us. It's a different task. Yeah, and you mentioned john paul ii, but he talked about a lot about that, but he not only said it, he lived it. He was very focused on the business at hand, with confidence and competence and faith in Christ, and so when he was asking us to be braver, he himself was living that, and so he was a great mentor, a great icon. For that I think the church at its best, all the saints probably, are great examples of how to lean into the evils and problems of the world with prudence, with love. And there are challenges out there, but a lot of times we beat these things. We do really well with these things.
Speaker 1:And the other thing you just brought up, say the saints and you bring it up in your book that there were saints that struggled with these anxieties. So it's not just me, it's not just some young person or some old person. We all have to lean in a little bit, don't we? And you talked about temperaments in there. Some people are a little bit more prone to anxiety and so they have a little bit more of a battle. But we all improve, right, we can all have a chance to improve. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3:Well, one of the ways that I like.
Speaker 1:And breathing too. Talk about breathing a little bit.
Speaker 3:Well, one of the things that I like to you know remind people of is that you know our way of responding to anxiety well. First of all that's part of it is is we learning to respond rather than just simply react to the anxiety? Because anxiety, again, it's this like fear-based response that just hijacks the system. So it's it tries to get us to like react really quickly, but that's not always the right thing to do.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 3:No, so I use the example.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can atone to that. I mean, you know what?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Those words come out, and you can't always get them back either.
Speaker 3:Can alarm going off. That is like a fire alarm going off could mean there is a fire in the building. But even if that's the case, even if there is a fire in the building, what do we do? Well, we, like you, know in school and different times, we, you know, we have fire drills where we learn how to respond if there's a fire in the building. And it's not like so, if the fire alarm were to go off in this building, the correct response isn't for us to just panic and jump out a window. I mean, we're on the third floor. That would be really bad.
Speaker 3:Yes, so the best response really should be to first pause, notice it, acknowledge it and then evaluate the situation. Am I in danger? If I'm in danger, how much danger? Can I calmly exit the building, you know? Or you know, last resort, do I jump out the window? But what the anxiety tries to get us to do is immediately just bolt without even thinking, and that's not even the correct response to an actual feared event. So what we have to learn is essentially to we have to give ourselves permission to practice learning a new method of response to the anxiety. And the thing about practice is it gives us permission to not get it right all the time. We're going to be bad at it If we just acknowledge like hey, I have a lot of anxiety, that probably means I'm actually bad at dealing with it.
Speaker 1:I am going to have to and probably Leanna that the healing comes not all at once. Right, it's a process, and so it's important. I think, especially with our audience and some of the older Gen Z people especially too, that they have to practice it a little bit, don't they? I mean, it's not like I'm going to breathe and then I can get calm for a second. I need to continue to do that and get off that phone for a few minutes too, while I'm breathing and relaxing, right?
Speaker 3:We don't like not being good at things, generally speaking, and so we might be like well, I've tried deep breathing, I did it for like a minute, right, like that's not going to work. You know that's like saying, you know, okay, like I want to go play tennis I've never played tennis but and then being mad if we throw ourselves into a tennis match with a pro and aren't very good at it. Like no, like we have to start with the basics. You have to learn how to hold a racket, you know you have to learn the rules and it's going to take time and it's going to feel awkward. You know people who have never practiced, you know, just learning not even deeper, they're just noticing their breath. It feels awkward, it feels boring. It feels it feels awkward, it feels boring, it feels it can feel uncomfortable. You know that doesn't mean that you're doing it wrong. It just might mean that you're unused to it. You know, maybe you're unused to that silence, that stillness that comes, you know, when just trying to be in our body and notice our breathing. But what breathing does.
Speaker 3:What is so important about breathing is so, just as fear will cause, you know, us to change our you know respiratory rate you know, will accelerate our breathing to, you know, from the adrenaline you know, just to increase the blood flow to the brain and to the extremities to be able to run or grow life. Well, one way we can communicate to our brain that we are not actually in danger right now is to slow our breathing. It is one of the few bodily responses that we have. The systems that we have, that is both just automatic. We don't have to think about our breathing during sleep.
Speaker 3:But we also can do it intentionally and if we choose to breathe, you know, just at a normal, even rate and we do it for long enough, it slowly starts to communicate to our brain. Oh, it slowly starts to communicate to our brain. Oh, maybe my life's not in danger right now, maybe I'm safe, you know, maybe I can start to move out of threat mode and into feeling calm and feeling in control. But something like reversing that system is a skill and everyone can learn a skill and everyone can get system is a skill and everyone can learn a skill and everyone can get better at a skill. Some people are naturally good at certain skills, but everyone can learn and everyone can get better. It just it might be hard and it might be awkward and it might be uncomfortable, but those are not reasons to avoid doing something that could be really good for you. The whole desire for a quick fix is probably just a response to anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nobody wants to do that, but those are not reasons to avoid doing something that could be really good for you. The whole desire for a quick fix is probably just a response to anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, nobody wants to do that. What important thing have I ever done that happened like that? Four years to go to graduate school or longer. That's right. You make JVs, you make varsity, you get first string. How did all that happen? Jvs, you make varsity, you get first string. How did all that happen? So even the desire that if it's not quick fix, I don't want to do it, that's already. That's an anxious response. It's not approved. That's not the way it is that's a good point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, People are talking about the horse.
Speaker 2:But the first thing, barnabas takes him for three years and coaches him up. We don't want to let this guy roaming around until he understands what's going on here. So that's another sign. And when you want a quick fix for something, just how rarely is it the answer to anything important?
Speaker 1:And look how much time we don't have alone and quiet, right. I mean, you know, my wife grew up on a farm. I grew up in the city, but my wife grew up on a farm. And she just talks about those times where you're riding a horse, you know, through a field and you're looking around and you know I love nature, I'm a big backpacker and you know, just to do that, that's where you really are breathing, right. I mean, you get into a rhythm of, say, a hike, and you don't have to go backpacking, you can go right to the Forest Preserve or, you know. Or even in Virginia, where you live, there's parks around there, right.
Speaker 2:Wonderful yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's a 15-minute walk. And look at the flowers they're all blooming, or starting to bloom, at least out here this time of the year, Instead of listening to all that constant noise, huh.
Speaker 2:You know the monks always. I guess the church has a tradition of morning prayer and evening prayer.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:God. Go to him first. You know all things being equal, calmness, and you know it's Matthew 6, 6. You know the phone's always open, he'll always respond. You know he's available 24-7. And touch base with him asking for help. I mean, he talked about overcoming fear a lot, and then the end of your day. You know how did it go. I'm about to sleep. I'm going to trust myself to you for the next eight hours. Those kind of things, which are part of our Catholic tradition, turned out also to be great antidotes to anxiety and nervousness.
Speaker 1:How do you like that? Huh, how do you like that? Right, Isn't it?
Speaker 2:something. So, you know, turning things, surrendering to him, he's in charge. You know, that's the other thing too. You mentioned that in the very beginning of the podcast. Everyone's kind of waking up living life. These young people and actually all of us think we have to be entrepreneurs of ourselves, we have to invent ourselves, we have to be serious. You mentioned about relativism. I got to make up my own rules. I don't inherit anything, and this is that's tremendously stressful tremendously stressful.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is so important. You know, for some reason we think we were exploded onto this stage of life and there was no story going on already. You know, instead of trying to say, okay, what did I come into, what kind of story did I come into, we all think to your point that we got to make this all up as we go and we forget that we're this little tiny dot in the universe and look out sometimes, right, look out and say what kind of story did I come into? What am I supposed to do, what am I supposed to see? And, almost like Sherlock Holmes, start to investigate. You know, I was going to just say one more thing. You know, when, dr Bennett, when you were talking about those end prayers, those night prayers and I used to say, I still say those along with the rosary, and then I breathe a little. You know, I concentrate on that breathing. You read night prayers, you meditate on it and you breathe like that. You gonna find some peace there, you'll find some peace yeah, he gives.
Speaker 2:He says I don't give peace the way the world gives it. You know, it's not through success and domination and power. It comes from a piece that only he can give. So at least as christians and catholics I mean, there's other religions do this too. I mean, it's no coincidence everyone we can find a certain harmony and peace in our lives. Thereby we make decisions, like I think what Leona said is so important. We don't want to just react all the time. We want to respond with love. That's what we're asked to do as Christians, and sometimes you have to think that through. You have to think how can I respond lovingly or prudently here and not just react?
Speaker 1:Yes or prudently here and not just we act.
Speaker 2:Yes, my, my tendency, which only makes it worse.
Speaker 1:Right, it's, it only makes it worse. You know, you know you, you who wrote the story, or which one of the three of you came up with the story with bishop conley, because I thought that was a great story I, I, I've been a fan of bishop conley.
Speaker 2:He always comes. You know we're in dc, so the march for life is here. We've often met him there. He's one of the bishops that comes there. So, yeah, then he had his great he's the only anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you want to talk just a little bit about that and that disconnection where I remember you wrote that you know he thought he had to solve everything. Right, he had to become the answer.
Speaker 2:And Western guy. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2:I got it. I got this one and he said he kind of approached Christ as a guy like a coach a good coach, but a good one on the sidelines telling him to work harder and do more, and he was comfortable with that. I mean, he's a Midwestern guy, he's always been successful in his life. A late convert became a bishop pretty quick, so he thought he had all this. I'm in touch with God, I'm in touch with my faith and I got to do the heavy lifting, but the lift came too much. Being a bishop is unbelievable. And he broke down and he was examining his life and he's a good, holy man and he was examining his life and he goes, man, I was just putting all on my shoulders, not Christ, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're not supposed to do this alone, are we? I suppose a good therapist is like that, right, I would think a good therapist is going to walk with me right and try to help me kind of just be there. There's a lot of people that don't have anybody that has a good head on their shoulders that we can talk to nowadays Like a mentor is all need mentoring, an accompaniment Anybody that has a good head on their shoulders that we can talk to.
Speaker 3:Nowadays, you know, lack of mentors.
Speaker 2:All need mentoring, you know, and accompaniment, accompaniment, yeah, that's what we're built out of. So Christ is the basic one, but not just him. There's many, many others. That kind of work you're doing, you know, to connect people and the faith and help them, and it's really there's so many, so much help that the church can give, I think, on this problem.
Speaker 1:Again, it's not a quick fix. Like Leona said, it'll take a lifetime to find peace. Before I let you go, there are just a couple other things that I think are so important because they come up. Scrupulosity is one of them, and who wants to talk about that a little bit? Because we do find people that come back in and then they're nervous because they're unpacking these. You know, you go to confess you mentioned in the book. You go to confession, but what happens is when you're new, you take off a layer and there's another layer and another layer and they think there's just I'm just evil or I'm just a bad person, which isn't true. This is really starting to heal from a depth, and can we frame that in a way, leanna, that helps young people or old people say hey, you know, don't be so hard on yourself all the time. I always think of divine mercy. Right, you know, I'm looking for the most hardened sinners, jesus said, and they have more right to my mercy, and it's the opposite of sometimes what we think, huh.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when people get caught up in scrupulosity, you know, sometimes it can be kind of a normal like, sometimes sort of a lighter version of scrupulosity can be like a phase that we move through. But if we're not moving through it, you know like maybe we are a recent convert and we're like, oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed with my sinfulness. Actually, I just had the opportunity just read with my book club the Confessions by St Augustine, and from infancy he discusses his sins in infancy and I'm like maybe this feels like a convert.
Speaker 3:I don't think we're called to do it in this you know like that could really stir up somebody's scrupulosity.
Speaker 3:But if you know, in the process, you know you talk with your priest who, kind of like, sets you straight and you, you know, you're then able to kind of go on Like that's not like scrupulosity with a big ass, you know, like that's not an anxiety disorder with a big ass.
Speaker 3:You know like that's not an anxiety disorder, when we have the experience of where our anxiety actually changes, our idea of who we think God is, where it becomes all fear-based, where it's, you know, like this idea that we could, like, accidentally commit a mortal sin. You know, and we're constantly thinking, you know, but what if I did this thing, what if this thing could, you know, damn my soul to hell? And it becomes so sin-focused and hell-focused and, you know, eternal damnation-focused. It's like we lose. It's like like, like who do you think God is? You know, eternal damnation focused, it's like we lose. It's like who do you think God is? You know, like he's not trying to trick us into sinfulness. You know he's not sitting here, like just be like, ha ha, you know, got you. That was actually a mortal sin.
Speaker 3:You know he's not. It should not be that easy to commit a mortal sin, you know, especially for someone who is trying actively to live a good and holy life. Because what ends up happening and you know, scrupulosity, it feels like, it feels very spiritual because it is attacking the thing that is sometimes most important to the person, you know, and what it can end up doing is it can if they keep giving in to the scrupulosity that, if they keep giving in to this idea that, like, what if I did commit a mortal sin? Well then I have to go to confession. And then they start to dread going to confession. Every confession becomes a burden and becomes fearful. And then what if I didn't confess enough sins? And then they begin to dread going to mass sitting in a church. What if I think a blasphemous thought, you know? And then I can't go receive communion. And it becomes all of these what ifs? And then they keep erring on the side of caution, like, well, I might have committed a blasphemous thought, so therefore I shouldn't go to communion right now, and they keep.
Speaker 3:But what it does is every time they err on this side of sort of like extreme caution which is actually giving into the anxiety. They pull themselves further and further from the Lord and further and further from his actual mercy. You know like I mean. The idea that we can be perfect is like kind crazy, we can't, we're not going to be perfect. I mean, we can strive for it, but not in a scrupulous way. The Lord knows we're going to mess up and that's why he's given us confession and that's why he's given us his grace and his mercy and he's asking us to come to him as these sinners. But when we are so focused on the what if of our sins that may not actually be sins, often are not then we end up losing a relationship with him. He's like standing there be like no hello come.
Speaker 1:Like, I'm right here.
Speaker 3:Look at me, turn to me, and we're just so you know that's so.
Speaker 1:that's what's going on with scrupulosity is we're so. I think that's why I, you know, I keep that picture of divine mercy behind me there and you know we just don't trust right, we're going to have to put a trust at some points to get out of this cycle. That we're in, right, it sounds.
Speaker 1:What you just described sounds awful you know, and I think we all go through it to a certain extent, but you take it too far. And again we have to read some good books. Good literature, scripture all of those things are just so good for us, and I'm trying to get young people to read again, just to read books again, and to sit there for an hour or half hour and read a good book and fill your mind full of good things and when your mind starts to drift, you just take that deep breath that you talk about. One other thing and this will be the last point I'd love to get your opinion on when I'm talking to again, it's a lot of young men right now, just because we have this Claymore sword behind me. It's called Claymore, it's from William Wallace's Braveheart, and it's that battle on a man's heart between love and lust, and truth and lies. We fight right. So this is kind of what we're talking about here. And when they learn, you know they're in this pornographic culture. These poor people, you know these poor guys. They got these images on their mind that they never looked for in the very beginning. Some of these guys have been looking at porn since they were eight, nine to 10 years old by accident and they get into it. Talk about searing images on your brain. These guys are mad now that they can't get them out.
Speaker 1:But the point being, temptation is not a sin. We get temptation and you mentioned it in the book too. So temptation is not a sin. Can you talk to that on the way out? Dr Bennett? Just a little bit to say when temptations come in, you haven't committed a sin, you don't have to run to confession. If we don't open that up to God, what I tell them is this when temptation comes in, you haven't committed a sin, you don't have to run to confession. You know, if we don't open that up to God, what I tell them is this when temptation comes in, don't push it down, don't indulge it, open it. And when you open your temptations up to prayer, it's like an invitation to prayer. So we talked about you said this already, dr Ben. You know when that temptation comes in, right into your right and you feel it, this is the time to go to battle. But the battle is not my battle really. I open to grace. My battle is just to open. It's a third way, right, and let God walk with us and yoke himself to us and feel that grace. Let's talk just a little bit about that. Will you have temptation? People get temptations and there's a thousand a day for some of these poor guys.
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Speaker 3:Yeah, no, and that's a real. It's a huge struggle that you know, as our young people are all starting to face. But you know, when it comes to temptation like, the Lord doesn't want us to engage with it. You know, if we look at the Lord's like temptation in the desert, yes, yes, jesus was tempted right. He wasn't engaged, not really. He like quotes scripture, you know, and is like it's very like, very dismissive. But he doesn't argue like that, and so that's what happens.
Speaker 3:And so anxiety and temptation, like the response really should be kind of similar. You know where it like we can't control the temptations are going to come into our brain. We can't control the anxious thoughts that are going to come into our brain, but we can choose what to do with them.
Speaker 1:Yes, this is the key come into our brain.
Speaker 3:We can't control the anxious thoughts that are going to come into our brain, but we can choose what to do with them Anytime.
Speaker 3:We, you know, we talk about wrestling with temptation, but I don't think that's really the right move to do. We want to like, almost just like, eh, like it's, it's going to come and it's going to go, you know, like, let the Lord, let the Lord deal with that, let the Lord take it, you know, and inviting the Lord in, you know he can, he can deal with, he can, he can, he can. But anytime, if we either giving into temptation, obviously that's not helpful, it's not great for us to be doing, but fighting with the temptation, any engagement with it strengthens it, cause that's the whole goal, that's the whole goal is for it to be like is to cause us trouble, and if we engage it it's trouble, if we start biting it it's trouble. Like, no, we don't we. The best thing we can do is just to acknowledge, like these thoughts are going to come into my head. You know I, I don't really I don't choose for that to happen and and to have something to, you know, either to redirect our focus.
Speaker 2:You know, like, hey, lord could use your help right now hand it over to him, but not for us to, you know. So maybe acknowledge it, but don't engage with it Like yeah, here you are again.
Speaker 2:Of course I'm tired, I've had a rough day. Oh yeah, I notice when things don't go my way I start feeling sorry for myself. So a whole series of temptations, so I'm not surprised by that. Here you are again. So, I think, acknowledging it but not engaging with it, not having a dialogue with it, not just acknowledge it and try to encourage it to move on.
Speaker 3:Similar to temptation. There's this category of thoughts, called horrific thoughts, that everyone experiences to some degree. It can be the we're standing on a metro platform and we can have the thought like I could jump in front of that train right now, and that's just. You know, like our, our mind is creative, right, Like reframe.
Speaker 1:Been there, done that.
Speaker 3:The average person with low anxiety is able to be like oh no, thank you, you know. And so that's an example of like a horrific thought or a temptation. You know, temptations are usually horrific thoughts. In some ways, you know, to be able to just be like oh no, no, thank you. The problem is sometimes the anxious brain sees that thought come through and we think, oh my gosh, why am I thinking that? What's wrong with me that I'm thinking that? Do I actually want to do that? Like, and then. And then they engage with the thought, you know. So it's simpler with sometimes temptation like ah, why am I having this thought? Why am I thinking this thought? What does it mean that I'm thinking this thought? Does it mean I'm a terrible person, that I'm having this thought? No, none of that. Our reframe, our brain is just creative. We're not going to engage it. I don't like it. Nope, not going to engage it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, next right it.
Speaker 3:I don't like it. Nope, not going to engage it. Yeah, next, right, yeah, like, hand it over to the Lord. I don't want that Pass. And that's, I think, a healthier way of responding sometimes to these, which is, you know, like I'm not, like I'm not going to wrestle with it. I'm also not going to, like, go to extreme lengths to avoid it, like, okay, well, can't ever ride the Metro again. That was really, that was really unpleasant. Not going to do that again. Like, no, no, my thoughts don't control me. I can ride the Metro.
Speaker 3:I might have, like you know, bad, unpleasant thoughts might pop up, but they're just thoughts and I'm not choosing to have them. And we have to believe that. You know, I'm not choosing to have these. My thoughts are not the whole of who I am. Focus more on what are the thoughts we're choosing, you know, turning our mind to prayer, turning our mind to the Lord. You know, again, similar to our breathing, our thoughts are something that we both can't control. But also can you know, we can intentionally think certain thoughts, but also thoughts will just pop into our head and we don't have control over that and the Lord understands that much better than we do.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, mr Bennett, any last words and tell us why should we buy this book. What ages? Are there any specific ages, or who did you write?
Speaker 2:this for I think probably young adults and above I mean some teenagers might like it, because it talks a lot about relationships, but this is really a kind of there's a lot of, I think, very great insights from the Catholic Church, great insights from neuroscience, some practical things that Leona just shared. A lot of them. It can be very helpful. We are in a culture that is predominantly kind of anxiety and gender.
Speaker 1:Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:Trying to come up with some ways to not be anxious.
Speaker 1:And I do like the way you did tie in scripture. I mean, you know, because look at, let's face it, I don't think there's just a secular solution to this. You know, I really think the role you know myself for psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, marriage and family therapists is to be that link between that person. Try to get them to move into these solutions and then make sure that one of the solutions is going to be the ultimate solution, Because then you're open to grace, you're. I mean, it's such a beautiful way to practice.
Speaker 1:I think what you're doing is such a beautiful way to practice, right? I'm not trying to think that I'm the only guy that can solve your problems. I'm walking with you, I'm journeying with you, I'm pointing things out, I'm giving you some practical advice and I'm also connecting you with Scripture and the great physician of everybody. And that's the difference. I think that's the difference between what you do and I meet therapists and psychiatrists and psychologists all the time and it's always refreshing to have somebody that lifts their heart to the Lord at the same time, because I think personally I know the power in that and I'm sure you do too.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, God bless you. Thanks for for being with us. You're such a pleasure. Both of you and we get this from what's the best place to buy. This is from sophia yeah, all right, we'll make sure we'll make sure that we get that in the show notes. Thank you so much. Hey, god bless you. Thank you appreciate it thank you thanks everybody for joining us today. Talk to you again soon. Thanks everybody for joining us today. Talk to you again soon.